Monday, January 23, 2012

Would That Be So Bad?

In The New Republic, Robert Kagan writes on "the myth of American decline". The myth of decline, according to Kagan, rests on two pillars; one is the wake of the financial crisis, which has left the U.S. in an enduring economic rut, and the other is an alleged decrease in military power relative to the rest of the world. Kagan avers that both of these are mistaken.
In economic terms, and even despite the current years of recession and slow growth, America’s position in the world has not changed. Its share of the world’s GDP has held remarkably steady, not only over the past decade but over the past four decades. In 1969, the United States produced roughly a quarter of the world’s economic output. Today it still produces roughly a quarter, and it remains not only the largest but also the richest economy in the world. [...]

Here [in "military hegemony"] the United States remains unmatched. It is far and away the most powerful nation the world has ever known, and there has been no decline in America’s relative military capacity—at least not yet. Americans currently spend less than $600 billion a year on defense, more than the rest of the other great powers combined. (This figure does not include the deployment in Iraq, which is ending, or the combat forces in Afghanistan, which are likely to diminish steadily over the next couple of years.) They do so, moreover, while consuming a little less than 4 percent of GDP annually—a higher percentage than the other great powers, but in historical terms lower than the 10 percent of GDP that the United States spent on defense in the mid-1950s and the 7 percent it spent in the late 1980s. The superior expenditures underestimate America’s actual superiority in military capability. American land and air forces are equipped with the most advanced weaponry, and are the most experienced in actual combat. They would defeat any competitor in a head-to-head battle. American naval power remains predominant in every region of the world.
With regard to the ongoing economic / financial crisis, many economic critics claim - and I agree - that FedGov is playing a game of "extend and pretend" by printing money, that many of our biggest banks, as well as those in Europe, are for all intents and purposes insolvent, and that all this will not end well. Nevertheless, Kagan's point that relatively we are still on top, and my point that economic forecasting is notoriously difficult - not even economists can do it consistently right - are worth keeping in mind. The future isn't certain, at least in the short term.

Kagan also argues that the U.S. is not "overstretched" militarily, and that we can easily afford our military expenses. Here lies Kagan's real concern: the projection of power abroad. He takes it as a given that this is necessary.

But here's why Kagan doesn't wish Americans to take seriously the idea of decline:
BUT THERE IS a danger. It is that in the meantime, while the nation continues to struggle, Americans may convince themselves that decline is indeed inevitable, or that the United States can take a time-out from its global responsibilities while it gets its own house in order. To many Americans, accepting decline may provide a welcome escape from the moral and material burdens that have weighed on them since World War II. Many may unconsciously yearn to return to the way things were in 1900, when the United States was rich, powerful, and not responsible for world order. [emphasis added]
See, the funny thing is, is that a nation should be run for the benefit of its citizens. So, at least, one would think. Would it really be so bad if we ceased to be the world's policeman, i.e. we had "a welcome escape from our [alleged] moral and material burdens"? For whose benefit are these burdens anyway? More Americans are cottoning to the notion that, insofar as it affects them, they carry all the burden while the elite who run the country gain the benefits.

Would it be so bad if we returned to a situation in which "the United States was rich, powerful, and not responsible for world order"? But to do that would mean abandoning much of the elite project, that is, halting quasi-genocidal levels of immigration, halting the export of the manufacturing base as well as other jobs, and putting an end to the endless, purposeless, foreign wars. It would mean a nation whose purpose was aligned with its people.

103 comments:

  1. Little to say on an excellent post. Most alt/righters yearn for a nation whose purpose is "aligned with its people." Most (even the atheists, I would claim) would be quite comfortable in the sort of nation the Founders envisioned: a republic with a populace best suited to the morals and ideas underlying its balance of powers. The Founders explicitly stated (but not in the Constitution, unfortunately) that such a system was suited solely to a moral and Christian (and implicitly White European) people. For all the excesses of capitalism and the mass immigration (although primarily White European) of 1900, the country then was not too far from its roots. Now it has been sundered from them and the ground sown with salt.

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  2. He seems to equate "decline" with a pullback of military presence around the world. They are not the same thing. There is such a thing as being overextended, which can actually cause decline. Recognizing that there are limits is not a sign of weakness but of realism.
    This guy, with his "head-to-head" remark, makes me think he has watched one too many cowboy movies. So who does he want us to fight next? Of course he's never fought anyone, head-to-head or otherwise; that's for others to do.

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  3. Yes, I want the US government to act in the best interests of the American people. I also want it to stop meddling in the affairs of other nations who want to act in the interests of their own particular people. I prefer to see nationalist governments in power in other nations because they're a lot more predictable and usually quite a bit more sane. I believe that we'd be lucky if we could afford half the military budget we presently have.

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  4. You of all people should know that a nation whose purpose does not align with its people is no nation at all

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  5. Plummeting national IQ is no myth, nor is plummeting national VQ.

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  6. "Would that be so bad?" Why, yes. What better can we ask of our masters in Washington than to ensure that the sun never sets on U.S. military bases, choose sides in every conflict in the world or at least referee the fight, use our military as a well-digging Peace Corps, bury wrecked armaments in Middle East sands so we can buy more from the military-industrial complex, have colorful ceremonies involving flag-draped caskets, and demand a "peace process" from enemies who've spent the past 60 years driving each other insane?

    I tell you, it makes a fellow proud to belong to a country that's the biggest, meanest kid in the schoolyard.

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  7. Moreover, even if we were to split the difference and concede there could be circumstances in which the US should intervene, (closing the Straits of Hormuz would be disastrous for everyone including the US), the US Military could be ready for such a mission for far less money than is being spent today. A lot of budget goes into supporting foreign bases most of which are unneccessary.

    @Nicholas - What's VQ?

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  8. The Iran propaganda is becoming relentless. If they could do it on their own i think the Israelis would have done it by now so i'm guessing there's too many sites and they need the US.

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  9. What kind of name is Kagan, by the way? IIRC there was another Kagan being discussed here not long ago.

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  10. Here here.

    Robert Kagan is a Jewish neo-con.

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  11. Can one yearn unconsciously? I doubt it. But in any event, how would he know what "Americans" (how many?) yearn for? And why would they yearn for 1900, as opposed to 1957? I know that I yearn for a time before Brown v. Board, but I'd bet many people yearn for no more than the ability to simply profile at airports, which itself would sharply lighten the "world order" responsibility.

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  12. He isn't talking about you guys. He's talking as a member of the Establishment and as a Jew. And from that point of view having the peasants yearn for isolationism is DANGER.
    By the way are you fellas bombing Iran before or after the election?

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  13. There was, to be sure, one thing that many of even the most passionately committed American Zionists were reluctant to do, and that was to face up to the fact that continued American support for Israel depended upon continued American involvement in international affairs– from which it followed that an American withdrawal into the kind of isolationist mood that prevailed most recently between the two world wars, and that now looked as though it might soon prevail again, represented a direct threat to the security of Israel.

    Norman Podhoretz - 1979

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  14. "Would it be so bad if we returned to a situation in which "the United States was rich, powerful, and not responsible for world order"?"

    Not being responsible for the world order would be great -- depending on who was responsible for it. In 1900, Great Britain was responsible for it. If I could snap my fingers and have the British reconstitute their empire, I'd be happy to go back to that status quo. But there would be a different dynamic today if the US stepped away from the world: there wouldn't be a civilized European country running the show.

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  15. Physical and economic decline is just a symptom of a profound spiritual destitution. Western whites have, on the whole, lost their desire to propagate a civilization they created. Who else will do it?

    Neither the Jews on the top, nor the colored races on the bottom, possess the integral psychic ability to sustain what has been given to them, and what they both parasitically live on. And from the East it is a big question whether the yellow races can "fill in the gaps." Like Spengler and Evola, I suspect that decline is inevitable for us.

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  16. Off topic, but you (and your Aussie readers, in particular) may find this of interest: "Australia Day Car Flag Flyers 'Racist'".

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  17. I think Kagan is afraid that in the future Americans may be less interested in sending their children to die fighting the enemies of Israel.

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  18. "Australia Day Car Flag Flyers 'Racist'".

    That was hilarious. Or would be if so many people didn't take it seriously.

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  19. there would be a different dynamic today if the US stepped away from the world: there wouldn't be a civilized European country running the show.


    Humanity somehow survived for many thousands of years without any countries at all, still less one country running the whole world.

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  20. I wonder when the Jew will get tired of Tikkun Olam with Goy blood and Goy treasure. I suspect any day now...

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  21. But there would be a different dynamic today if the US stepped away from the world: there wouldn't be a civilized European country running the show.

    "The show" is the problem.

    "The show" means globalism - open borders, capital flows, trade, etc.

    It shouldn't be run, it should be dismantled.

    It should be regarded as a hazard, and any intervention should be aimed at preventing it from ever being orchestrated.

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  22. "The show" worked pretty well for America from its founding until the beginning of the Cold War, when we started letting Germany, Japan, and other countries do to us what we had been doing to Great Britain for the last 100 years or so (hint: running the show doesn't require open trade and the rest). And the show worked great for Great Britain for centuries, even if we got the better of them for a century or so.

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  23. I don't care if it "worked".

    "The show" always involves technologically amplified ecological panmixia. That's how it "worked" for Great Britain as trade route colonists.

    I don't want it to "work".

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  24. Ricardo, Re the Australia Day saga.
    This time of year, our leaders deem it necessary to lecture us on how to celebrate our Australian-ness in an appropriate atmosphere of shame. Last night a noted surgeon by the name of Tao made the Australia Day Address. He said that he too, as a young man thought Australia should be kept for those fortunate enough to be here; he wanted to keep the 'bad people' out; he wanted to preserve the idyll. But then, hilariously, his eyes were opened on a seven year trip to the US. He saw how big America was; he saw how rich America was; and he knew the secret of America's success. Every did. I was those millions of hard working Mexicans.

    Thus he came to see the light. I shit you not.
    Gilbert P

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  25. Correction: Teo is the surgeon's name.

    Also should read 'It was those millions of hard...'

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  26. "....aligned with its people" is a phrase of great ambiguity. Few Americans these days feel brotherly. The spiritual solidarity of VE Day may never be seen again. Those people were trully united. Today we are tensely aware of real aliens in our midst and generally repressed by PC power enough to hide our real thoughts about race and gender. We have never been so divided as conservatives fight among themselves and are sickened by the likes of Olbermann, Michael Moore, or Rachel Maddow. While Hannity, Limbaugh, or OReilly seem "conservative" on a few topics, their gaudy egomania is an instant turnoff. They seem unaware of the real decline of America, driven by liberal memes and multicult mania. Never do they admit unPC ideas such as HBD. The very idea that Third World illiterate, low IQ masses might destabilize the country with god-awful crime,welfare, and horrendous incivility has yet to penetrate their egocentric psyches.As Robert Putnam has discovered, radically different people cannot assimilate into the larger culture and social bonds will remain tribal. Diversity must eventually fracture every aspect of our national life that is required for a real nation to exist.

    Decline is thus a poisoning of our social fabric and our civility. Public discourse becomes blandly neutral out of fear. We are indoctrinated to believe that inferior blacks are superior despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. TV commercials daily show whites as idiots but blacks are cool, competent leaders and seemingly very bright. Square is round and round is square. We are, after all, equal except in basketball.

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  27. If I could snap my fingers and have the British reconstitute their empire, I'd be happy to go back to that status quo. But there would be a different dynamic today if the US stepped away from the world: there wouldn't be a civilized European country running the show.

    The "civilized European countries" fought each other like rabid dogs for centuries before the USA existed and after it existed. Indeed, a leading reason the USA achieved its independence was European rivalry, and vicious European rivalry greatly benefited the USA from 1783 to 1945. Also, of course, the benevolent hegemony of the civilized European countries wasn't so benevolent or civilized from the standpoint of the Third World countries conquered and exploited from 1783 to 1945.

    Given that we benefited greatly from external strife while others were running the show before 1945, it is not immediately obvious that we would not benefit from such strife again if we stepped back and resisted the urge to meddle for a while. We can mitigate a lot of the effects of external strife by closing our borders to immigration for a while. Don't invade the world, don't invite the world -- a win-win situation if there ever was one!

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  28. Dennis, think again. Isolation is no good, and even the xenophobic North Koreans have at last realized it. Isolation is a hot house that breeds bizarre ideologies and monstruous regimes. Communist China realized that isolation was leaving them dirt poor, technologically behind and militariliy very vulnerable, so they changed course. But lets argue from the other side: To topple Iran, the first step is to isolate it, to boycott its products, to cut its sources of supply, to deny it advanced technology, to separate it from its allies, to leave it alone and helpless. America is big and rich and its reduction to isolation and helplessness would take time, but it would happen.

    Lets take another example: the Continent of America developed in isolation while history and evolution was taking place in humanity's main centers. Poor American natives had no idea how weak they have become, a group of adventurers from the center (Europe) liquidated them in no time.

    The isolation of the people inthe Flores Island turned them into animal-like dwarves. I am not saying that Americans will turn into a new species, but that isolation is bad.

    Active interaction with the world will advance America and make it stronger and competitive. That is the road to take.

    America and Americans were the most extrovert people of all. From where come all this fear and introversion?

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    1. Dennis, trying to monitor one's food intake is no good. I mean, look at what it does to anorexics.

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    2. No country or people should choose isolation from the outside world! Just look what became of the North Koreans, the Flores Islanders and the American Indian! This is why I'm a staunch proponent of mass immigration into Israel.

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    3. America and Americans were the most extrovert people of all. From where come all this fear and introversion?

      Damn straight, J. The 911 attacks happened because we did very, very little after the first effort to bring down the WTC 1993, and when our embassies were bombed in 1998 in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, and after the suicide attack on the USS Cole in 2000. Clinton's George McFly foreign policy of turning the other cheek over and over again led many important terrorists to believe the United States is a paper tiger.

      Someone at this point will bring up Chomsky's cheesy "blowback" theory, which is extra-strength stupid. There is violence from Muslim supremacists all over the world -- Nigeria, the Philippines, Russia, western China, Sudan, Thailand, etc. etc. -- so it makes no sense to claim that American is the root cause of all of this. In addition, we don't see suicide bombers killing Americans from Vietnam, Korea, Nicaragua, etc., y'know, places where we actually intervened.

      No. The common denominator in all of this is political Islam. And defusing it on some occasions will require active military involvement. Terrorists by themselves have limited resources, yes, but the damage they can do increases dramatically when the possibility of state sponsorship enters the picture.

      Think, McFly! Think!

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    4. Yes, think. Why would the 1993 attacks have happened in the first place?

      Let's ask Ramzi Yousef.

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    5. J,

      No one, and I repeat no one, is arguing for isolationism. We'd still trade with other countries. Its worked perfectly well for Switzerland for centuries.

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  29. America and Americans were the most extrovert people of all. From where come all this fear and introversion?

    Oh, I don't know -- maybe scenes like this.

    Be sure not to miss this foto.

    Uhh, I hope that helps.

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    1. One also can question whether there are better ways to spend $4,000,000,000,000.

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    2. T shirt idea: my government spend 4 trillion saving a bunch of parasitic whiners in the desert, and all I got was Iraqi refugees as neighbors.

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  30. "In 1969, the United States produced roughly a quarter of the world’s economic output. Today it still produces roughly a quarter, and it remains not only the largest but also the richest economy in the world. [...]"

    One should bear in mind that the term "economic output" means how much money is churned in the economy, a number which includes derivative contracts, in-trade futures, Hollywood fireball-movies, gangsta-rap, Lady Gaga tunes, tattoo parlors, on-line gambling, tabloids, fantasy-football, bulk purchases of drain cleaner for meth production, and the resale of copper stolen from A/C units.

    Robert Kagan was a foreign policy advisor for the agressively stupid John McCain and the co-founder, along with William Kristol, of the "Project for the New American Century" or the "Let's bomb our way to greatness" thinktank. He is nothing but a tool, agent, and paid shill of the American empire. Among the leading indicators of the decline of America are people like Robert Kagan.

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    1. One should bear in mind that the term "economic output" means how much money is churned in the economy...

      Exactly. If anything good comes out of our current mess, I hope it will be that there are some solid, creative minds out there who will make some real advances in economics, so we have useful new ways to think about real economies, not the rusting mumbo-jumbo models that are useless for anything but "five year tractor-production" stats.

      He is nothing but a tool, agent, and paid shill of the American empire. Among the leading indicators of the decline of America are people like Robert Kagan.

      Some days I'm no longer so sure about the "shill and tool" hypothesis. Some days it seems that "have just completely lost their minds" makes more sense as a explanation for the crazy shit like Kagan's that I see in the "papers" everyday.

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  31. "The show" worked pretty well for America from its founding until the beginning of the Cold War..


    That's a very revealing comment, since the beginning of the Cold War is when America started sticking its nose into the rest of the worlds business in earnest. What worked pretty well was what some rather stupid people insist on calling "isolationism", though of course it was nothing of the sort.

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  32. Isolation is no good, and even the xenophobic North Koreans have at last realized it.


    Thank you for that brilliant refutation of North Korean style "isolationism". But since nobody has proposed any such thing, who are you responding to?

    I don't see why it is so difficult to understand that a happy medium can exist somewhere in between building a completely impenetrable (from both sides) wall all around America on the one hand, and deploying American legions in every last god-forsaken spot in the world on the other.

    Nobody is suggesting that we do the first, but a lot of people are arguing that we should and must do the latter.

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  33. So, J - America's choice is between world hegemony and "isolation," huh?

    You can't think of any other possibilities? Really? None at all?

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    1. I dont think America wants or strives for hegemony. America has an active international policy mostly for defensive purposes. America does not collect taxes for defending Japan or Germany, it does not demand closed markets for its products (like the British did in India), it does it mostly for securing allies and quite a bit of altruism and idealism.

      Of course I can think of several other political structures. But in the moment America turns isolationist and abandons its allies, a coalition will rise to defeat and cut up America into pieces. Like China was divided among foreign powers at the end of the 19th Century.

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    2. But in the moment America turns isolationist and abandons its allies, a coalition will rise to defeat and cut up America into pieces.

      America doesn't have 'allies.' It has freeloaders who have been mooching off us since WWII so they could erect generous welfare states and subsidize anti-American sentiment.

      And America is already "cut up." You think blacks have any interest in the place other than as a tax farm for their gimme-dats? You think immigrants are coming here to pay for old white people's Medicare?

      America is a modern experiment that needs to be wound down in order to avoid a violent end.

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  34. " From where come all this fear and introversion?"

    It comes from reality! If I itemize the signs of decay in Florida, my list would be encyclopedic. Florida governments play the diversity game by avoiding E-verify, building walkways for poor workers to traverse, opening hospital emergency rooms to illegals en masse, etc. Everywhere pawn shops blossom, Amscot becomes ubiquitous, BUY GOLD stores with seedy characters standing by the street with ugly signs. It is an atmosphere of pure decay! Furthermore, many cities here are now infested by Mexican shops of all kinds directed exclusively at their tribal brethren. Spanish is quickly becoming a major challenge to English.The police find themselves chasing a new breed of criminal, the Mexican-style gang.When arrests are made here, it is often 50 or more in car-crash scams or "pain clinics." Behavior in public is far more vulgar and crime in Florida cities is rampant if not publicized.

    You must be sublimely ignorant if unaware of the drop-out rate of the army of illegal Hispanics who are aided and abetted by the liberal elite and fellow tribalists. I know of an ambulance serice that covertly serves Hispanics and many lawyers favor them and encourage them. There is likely a whole underground support system.The second generation is academically dismal and prone to crime. ID thievery is enormous in Florida with headquarters in Miami, a major "american" city that even Time considers foreign and fully Latino.Mexican gangs are spreading across America.

    The "decline is very real and will be irreversible unless a man arises in this election who will greatly reduce this vast illegal population and deport most back to their homeland.The fence that gives us better control of our very soverneity should be built ASAP. While Romney has equivocated and Gingrich has moved rightward from his earlier stance, neither matches Bachmann's record as a tough anti-immigration stalwert. If Obama wins the election our descent into another Brazil is guaranteed.

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  35. While Romney has equivocated and Gingrich has moved rightward from his earlier stance, neither matches Bachmann's record as a tough anti-immigration stalwert.


    Bachmann is not a candidate, which makes her record academic.

    When did Gingrich "move rightward"?

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    1. Severn:

      Bachmann, whatever failings she had, nonetheless stood alone as the GOP leader as an anti-immigrationist. This fact alone is worrisome, because Romney or Gingrich will win. Gingrich has obviously moved rightward but seems quite duplicitous. I think his words are self-serving gestures and perhaps Romney, too, feels the need to posture. There are no Tom Tancredos here. None of them think in HBD terms-that would be political suicide-so the best bet is Romney emerging as a savior of America despite his less than sterling record.

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  36. Perhaps "J", the Israeli Water Engineer, would like to spend some time arguing against Israeli isolationism.

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    1. Hey, maybe he can persuade the Chinese that they're going to be "summer palace'd" all over again if they don't bomb Tehran and underwrite the "defense" of half the planet.

      (re his sparkling comment @Jan 25, 2012 09:36 AM, lol.)

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  37. ....America goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assumes the colors and usurp the standard of freedom....

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  38. Isolation is a hot house that breeds bizarre ideologies and monstruous regimes.

    Actually, horizontal transmission evolves virulence.

    Horizontal transmission breeds virulent genes and memes.

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  39. It comes from reality! If I itemize the signs of decay in Florida, my list would be encyclopedic. Florida governments play the diversity game by avoiding E-verify, building walkways for poor workers to traverse, opening hospital emergency rooms to illegals en masse, etc.


    One has to ask: cui bono?

    It seems that all of these schemes have one purpose: Get the middle class (mostly whites) to funnel money to the usual suspects and leave the middle class on the hook for any failures of the policies pushed by the usual suspects.

    Of course, when the shit hits the fan, there might finally be few places to run to.

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  40. Funny, those denying America is a global empire are often the same ones who are afraid of losing total control of the globe.

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  41. Global hegemony probably seems necessary to some because of the nuclear problem. We let the genie out of the bottle, therefore it is we who must spend eternity chasing it around.

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  42. More racism detected ..., but which is the more important racism?

    The violent physical racism of the black African youths or ...?

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  43. Hey, never mind this guy Kagan. Don't you know by now that blacks run America? Blacks run Australia too! It's all about IQ!!!

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  44. Wow!. I imagine that the secret service has taken note, but then, perhaps it would be anti-Semitic to do so, so perhaps they have a quandary.

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  45. "J" himself has lived in something like 3 or 4 countries over his lifetime.

    And his ancestors have long led a migratory existence, depending upon both physical migration across trade routes and inter-tribal and international trade for their economic survival.

    Hostility towards, wariness of, borders is bred into his very being.

    You can't really argue with someone like that about this. There are fundamental differences, at the genetic level.

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  46. Active interaction with the world will advance America and make it stronger and competitive. That is the road to take.

    Your idea of "America" is some sort of group-entity or body-politic whose raison d'etre is more and more power in the service of ends you find agreeable.

    The components of this group-entity or body-politic are to be used and discarded as replaceable parts or cells according to the demands of greater power in the service of ends you find agreeable.

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  47. The goal of America is not to win - its goal is to remain the only force-projecting superpower. To do this, it positions itself globally to block the expansion of regional powers before they can reach regional dominance. By fighting America, countries and global networks lose the momentum to accomplish other goals, fighting America becomes its own goal.

    Consider that in Iraq and Afghanistan all we lost were service men and women (which our draft-dodging, snake-in-the-grass, chicken-hawk leadership couldn't care less about) and money... which we print out of thin air. The USA is still the only superpower capable of projecting force globally and no other country has moved closer to reaching that goal. Meanwhile the USA has in fact made sustainable gains relative to the rest of the world in the last 10 years because of the R&D that has gone into drone technology, data-mining, surveillance and missile-defense. The government of the USA as also broadened its power over its own people by suspending Constitutional rights with the NDAA.

    If it feels like the power of the USA is on the decline, what you are really feeling is the decline of the American middle class. The elite and their sock puppets have never been better.

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  48. "Isolation" terrifies parasites because they will be exposed to empirical discovery. That’s why they have to keep uniform global law in place that imposes their social dogmas on everyone without exception — so as to prevent any control groups from forming anywhere. That’s why their Orwellian definition of “diversity” is to make every point in the world “look like the world” and is, in truth, global homogenization thus guaranteeing zero diversity. Zero tolerance for “intolerance” is, in fact, zero tolerance for diversity out of fear that differences may be in actual evidence. The fact that this violates consent is easily dealt with: Those who are not “persuaded” by propaganda are merely accused of “hate”. Problem solved.

    Like all theocracies they are viciously anti-science hence anti-truth. The power of argumentation is not to be infringed by experimentation.

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  49. Whiskey, if you are reading this, there is a good post on Vox Day about Israel-Firsters and the guy who called for Obama's assassination in the Atlanta Jewish Times. This is your big chance to go and educate those readers. Be sure to criticize Vox for blaming the pro Israel crowd instead of evil white women.

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  50. Would it be so bad if we returned to a situation in which "the United States was rich, powerful, and not responsible for world order"?

    All White Western nations now are not only suffering national (race based) disintegration under the king tides of massive non-White immigration, both legal and illegal, they are also having their economies handed over to an international oligopoly of corporations, managed by the IMF and UN.

    In response to the European crisis (http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/imf-seeks-1-trillion-to-stave-off-1930s-moment-20120125-1qg7z.html):

    IMF chief, Christine Lagarde, told an audience in Berlin $1 trillion would be needed to support ailing governments and stave off a deeper crisis - half of which would have to come from Fund backers such as Australia [and the USA etc].

    ...

    Ms Lagarde said the world was facing "a 1930s moment, in which inaction, insularity and rigid ideology combine to cause a collapse in global demand".

    "This is a defining moment," she said. "It is not about saving any one country or region. It is about saving the world from a downward economic spiral."


    It's about the final dissolvement of White nations; racially neutered and economically enslaved.

    In Berlin Ms Lagarde attacked the "worrisome tendency to view fiscal policy as a morality play between profligacy and responsibility".

    What's so worrisome about having a national economy that serves a national people? It is the responsibility of a nation to manage their own economy, not to be profligate in the knowledge that other nations (White nations) must bail you out time and again.

    While governments should commit to cutting spending in the medium term, the US in particular should avoid further cuts at the moment. Countries such as Australia which could readily finance higher deficits should allow them to climb rather than cut back if the world turned down.

    The USA should commit to ongoing, out of control deficits, while it has it's founding peoples over run, so that European countries also being swarmed by Arabs, Africans and the like, are propped up by US hard gained and worked for wealth.

    Australia should run higher deficits likewise. After all, we have been economically responsible even though we too have instituted social policy to destroy our people with mass immigration.

    Mr Swan endorsed the IMF analysis, saying no country can expect to be immune from the global threats it identified.

    Of course our treasurer (what a funny term, smacks of national treasure, something which is normally guarded and preserved) endorses the deal. National disintegration is not just a social policy, it's an international economic policy.

    These problems that Mangan has identified are not only applicable to the USA, they are world wide. But only applicable to Whites in formerly Western nations. We must pay the bill all the whiles our nations are stolen from us and our people and children bashed, robbed, raped and sold into economic slavery.

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  51. In reply to J's exhortation to forgo a (completely imaginary Juche-ist cartoon) of isolationism in favor of a robust, assertive foreign policy (i.e. telling people what to do and killing them), I can only say this: It is a strange philosophy that asserts that you must, of necessity, become a loner, a loser, and a shut-in simply because you refuse to be a bully, a whore, and a thief.

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  52. Martin B,

    You are too smart to believe in your own reductio ad absurdum arguments. You pretend that I believe that there are no options but (1) Juche-ist cartoon isolationism and (2) "a bully, a whore and a thief" country. You seem to pretend that I prophesy that isolationism will turn Americans into Flores hobbits. Or in the best of the cases, into North Korean famished dwarves.

    What I am saying that isolationism would surely impoverish America, intellectually and economically. I am saying that America is playing an important, beneficial, vital, very much needed role on this planet. If America tires of it and retires, the evil forces waiting on the side will fill the vacuum and that would be bad for all. Including my country Israel. Should I have the reins of America as many believe, I certainly would make it more interventionist, but unfortunetely I am powerless, so I write comments in Mangan's Blog.

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  53. Some of the evil forces waiting on to step in after America's defeat and going home: (1) Iran. It has long range missiles and soon will have nuclear weapons. It will blackmail neighboring countries and all of Europe. They hate so much America and "White Men" that further aggression is sure to follow. The future is unknowable, but all bad. (2) China. It is a very large and advanced country and already has started to take over oil-rich Southern China maritime areas, patrol Japanese waters, exercising Taiwans occupation, "liberation" of North India, and so on. I dont know what role are planning for America, but it must be humiliating at best. (3) South American dictatorships. Hugo Chavez is only a symptom, should he succeed other anti-American dictators will appear and start harassing weak and impotent America. In that scenario, the large Latin population of America will play a role, you have to admit that Mangan is right in feeling bad about it. And so on. Even the Germans have a deep dislike and resentment for having defeated them and sixty years of American occupation and will show it as soon they feel it is safe to do so.

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  54. J, don't forget 4) Israel: foreign nation whose people control the USA's news and entertainment industries, has spied on and stolen nuclear secrets from USA, has inordinate influence on American foreign policy. Co-ethnics in their diaspora feel that Iowa is too White and that White Americans are akin to Nazis, the sworn eternal enemy of all Jews which they equate with all White people.

    How soon should the USA start intervening in Israel J? Possibly some airstrikes before the end of the financial year perhaps?

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    1. Pat, America is very actively intervening everywhere including Israel. America and its fundations and foreign secretary finance more than a hundred non-profit NGOs in Israel. most focused inpromoting democracy and human right as your elite understands it. America also promotes Israel hi tech industry channeling into areas that do not compete with America and complement its capabilities. For example Israel developed a fighter plane, it was shot down by America; on the other hand Israeli-American cooperation is great in the drone area. Softly, quietly, lovingly, America is pushing us and forming us to places it wants us to be. It is like an apparently good willed rich uncle, and sometimes we have to fight back. In limiting those human rights, democracy, environmental NGOs we have lost and we have to suffer them because America wants them us to have them and we are too weak to resist American demands.

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    2. It must be very gratifying and frustrating all at the same time for you J.

      I'm not American btw J, I have no concern for your nation other than what the USA wills or doesn't will. Should the USA decide to smoke you then, so would my country go along and make all sort of grovelling excuses at the UN for the USA. That's our job.

      We are like a pilot fish that feeds off whatever leftovers the shark ate. If it's Afghanistan, Israel, Iran, makes no difference to us.

      But, it's like we once knew the people who made up the USA. Like they were related, cousins and all, who went weird. Got involved with some fundamentalist mob, who started to tell them to do all sort of crazy things that we couldn't understand. Started hanging out with people we knew hated them, and us.

      People who flattered them, pumped up their tyres. People who relied on them. You know who I mean.

      I dunno, maybe one day the USA will wake up.

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  55. Middle man minorities without a homeland are prone to the evolution of virulence.

    Jews, being a diaspora market dominant minority -- without even a homeland for more than enough generations to undergo strong selective pressure -- have developed adaptations that promote horizontal transmission between human ecologies to facilitate their own survival. These environments tend to exhibit virulence for the obvious reason that horizontal transmission is the primary known means by which virulence evolves.

    There is an intense, visceral fear of and opposition to "isolationism" involved here.

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  56. What I am saying that isolationism would surely impoverish America, intellectually and economically.

    Well you're wrong and too self-interested (whether you're conscious of it or not) about this matter to take seriously anyway.

    The source of the dominance of anti-isolationist policies was desire for sociosexual status over founding stock Americans.

    If you had let founding stock Americans do things their way, it would have resulted in an emphasis of "industry over finance" in the words of Henry Ford.

    America could have totally cut off not only all immigration, but all trade and communication -- total isolation -- at the time of the closing of the American frontier and the "Posterity of the Founders" would have been vastly better off.

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  57. What a battle of strawmans this is. If America is going to be interventionist or imperialist, then it has to be smart and ruthless about it. If it can't do that, maybe it is better to go home and allow a force more akin to the British Empire of yore to rise.

    America could have totally cut off not only all immigration, but all trade and communication

    What the hell is this philistinism. The advance of humanity depends on the smartest minds in the world communicating with each other.

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    1. Smart humans can, have, and will trade and talk across political/ethnic boundaries without people in the American midwest sacrificing their sons in idiot wars that serve anybody's interests but their own. "Humanity" (including Americans) isn't going to stop talking and trading because ordinary Americans don't bankrupt their own nation building bases in Ultima Thule to bomb villages in Bumfuckistan, for purposes that are not their own. (If anything, advanced technology probably lessens any need for a pax imperium to keep the intellectual channels open.)

      Funny how everybody else is talking and trading out the wazoo, without having to run an Empire themselves. And in case you haven't noticed, other nations, the BRICs, Japan, etc., are straightforwardly going about setting up channels to keep talking and trading profitably, regardless of the state of the dollar and with complete indifference Hilary Clinton's crusade to make the world safe for Gay Pride parades. But ah yes, IHTG, I'm sure we're can get them all back under the total control of Washington and the dollar by sending some working class American boys somewhere to get blown up or maimed for life for no damned reason that concerns them.

      But you should thank anon for supplying you with that extreme statement to latch onto and deflect the argument. It's remarkable to see so many people trying their damndest these days to bamboozle everybody into thinking that prudent non-interventionism and looking out for one's own interests is WantingToTurnAmericaIntoNorthKorea.

      Sadly for us but fortunately for you, there still seem to be some American voters who'll buy that crap.

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    2. Pfft. All I'm saying is that if you're going to do imperialism, you should do it right.
      I make no moral judgement on whether imperialism is a good thing, though looking at human history I suspect it may be inevitable.

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  58. "force more akin to the British Empire of yore to rise."

    Yah, the Brits knew how to do it. What did they get out of that. A toehold in Ireland and a rock in So. Spain.

    Empire is always a loser in the end except for some profiteers.

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  59. The advance of humanity depends on the smartest minds in the world communicating with each other.

    So who cares about "The advance of humanity"? What is humanity if it means that me and mine should die out for it?

    Please IHTG, I thought you were better than this sort of sophistry styled appeal to a universal type that means, for all practicality, our real destruction.

    What is this "humanity" you speak of? You mean you and yours?

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    1. The advance of humanity: science, technology, improvement of the human condition and of social organization. Space travel. Colony on Mars. Immortality. Singularity.

      Delete
  60. "Even the Germans have a deep dislike and resentment for having defeated them and sixty years of American occupation and will show it as soon they feel it is safe to do so."

    Oh, pooh.

    My town has a WW II Veterans' Museum. The curator tells the vets' stories.

    One of the displays is of a White American fighter pilot shot down over Germany, and how well he was treated:
    Surgery was performed to heal his injuries, he was given excellent medical care during his recuperation, the food was great, the cigarettes available, and after he regained his strength, he and the guards would sit around playing cards. When Germany was surrendered he was handed back to the Americans without fuss. His was not an unusual story, according to the curator.

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    1. Your story sounds true, I mean I think it is true. There is no contradiction between that and the deep undercurrent of resentment against everything American that is current European culture. I read Der Spiegel and every word drips with venom against America. More than hate it is a kind of diffuse morose resentment.

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    2. This isn't some secret history - it's well-known that the Germans treated captives from the Western democracies rather well. How do you think they could sell Hogan's Heroes as a comedy?

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  61. "What is this "humanity" you speak of? You mean you and yours?"

    Answer the question, IHTG.

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  62. All meaningless IHTG, as you well know given your nation and your situation. Should Israel expire in the cause of "humanity" would you gladly give her up?

    A great and famous Australian said of his "humanity" changing experiments and discovery:

    "People sometimes think that I and the others worked on penicillin because we were interested in suffering humanity. I don't think it ever crossed our minds about suffering humanity. This was an interesting scientific exercise, and because it was of some use in medicine is very gratifying, but this was not the reason that we started working on it.
    —Howard Florey, Baron Florey,"


    "Humanity" is a word that is very deceptive. It's a concept that implies some mystical universal bond of peoples, of races. Yet, the term itself was a White term that applied qualitatively within human intercourse, that acknowledged and understood racial differences. It was never applied as an equaliser. Those who knew the term, ascribed the term qualities that applied to what it is to be human, in their own ethnocentric sense, not just biologically human.

    The advancement of humanity only proceeds apace on the back of those who bear it: in childbirth and in sacrifice. All the rest do it for their own sake. Not humanity's.

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    1. Those goals are not meaningless, and they're worth the price of not shutting down global trade and communication(!)

      Mass immigration of the type currently seen in the West is unprecedented and unnatural. Trade and communication, on the other hand, are a constant in human history.

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    2. I didn't say the goals were meaningless but that your motivation was.

      Florey didn't advance medicine for the sake of humanity, yet he had a far greater impact on humanity than Einstein did.

      The goals you speak of are not rooted in the advancement of a concept like "humanity" but are the offshoots of one particular race, and its ensuant culture within a specific environment.

      Name me one person that does anything for "humanity" and I will show you a charlatan.

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    3. IHTG is right to argue that trade and communication are fundamental needs of Homo sapiens. Our minds have the power to understand the universe, a spectacular feat that might not be all that reassuring. Marco Polo is a shining example of global communication, but Pat is also right re the Darwinian truth of biological diversity that remains an intractable problem for races that are quite deeply different from each other, compounded by cultural differences that are often completely incompatible.

      A great man died on Jan.4 at age 95. He was James F. Crow of the U. of Wisconsin. He graciously edited my Apes or Angels? book and invited me to Madison. He agreed with my "controversial" position on human biodiversity but worried about the dangers of racial conflict. I personally believe that immigration can be readily controlled in a selective way to benefit a nation without dysgenic consequences. America's dilemma is the political war that barely acknowledges the ongoing invasion by Third World poor who cannot be anything but a net liability.Liberals have staked their very being on the faith that equality is foundational enough to be genetic! They are wrong.

      We can enjoy mild pluralism and future progress if we get political leadership with some understanding of HBD based upon the vast knowledge of Dr. Crow, James Watson, Bruce Lahn, and many others. However, when tech billionaires like Gates promulgate foolish "pie in the sky" remedies for educational disparities, I realize that liberals have an addiction to equality myths that is pathological. Whatever they may have learned growing up, they failed Anthropology I. Human harmony is a worthy goal, but diversity is a sword with two edges, one of which is highly destructive to any society wishing to progress economically and socially. Spending billions, as we now do, to "make" people equal is plainly the dumbest political scheme ever. If we disregard the very knowledge that began with Darwin about the reality of biodiversity, we blindly self-destruct.

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  63. J said on Jan 24, 2012 10:00 PM

    Some of the evil forces waiting on to step in after America's defeat and going home: (1) Iran. It has long range missiles and soon will have nuclear weapons. It will blackmail neighboring countries and all of Europe.


    How is that different from what the US does or has been done throughout all of history by the top dog?

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  64. Would that the danger of American decline were the usual suspects! America always faced the enemies without with valour, and - in spite of all - I think she can stil count on the people, the real people (not the spoiled brats of any age), if it comes to that. But what about the damage that was done, is being done and will be done by the universities, the PC thougt, the "quasi-genocidal levels of immigration" and the laws related to it (and other suicidal laws), the Judiciary, and on, and on, and on?

    As Walt Kelly said (in another context, but - who would have thought? - he was right), "We have found the enemy - and it is us".

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  65. IHTG says: What a battle of strawmans this is. If America is going to be interventionist or imperialist, then it has to be smart and ruthless about it. If it can't do that, maybe it is better to go home and allow a force more akin to the British Empire of yore to rise.

    Intervention or imperialism are the only forces for humanity in IHTG the Israeli's world. No such thing as minding your own business, sticking to your own kind, pulling your head in, getting on with your own things. It's either intervene or invade for IHTG.

    Like the British Empire who bit off a little more than her mouth could chew, and decided to kill both her empire and herself all for..what? Poland? Which she then handed over to Stalin's Russia?

    How many yores ago is IHTG speaking? Boer War? Concentration camps? Immolating India, sending all her lower class scum off in convict ships to work on foreign shores?

    Isn't this the sort of thing that America's founding fathers fought to avoid, and put it on their Great Seal? She looks to peace and in failure promises war. On the reverse, out of disorder comes order. From the many comes one. And He gives approval.

    Behind the pyramid is Europe's desolation in fratricidal wars. But in America it was to be a new people, unencumbered with foreign engagements. Atop the pyramid the eye of reason.

    In isolation she stood great. But today she strides like a tyrant across the world and across her own people of which she now makes laws against.

    This is what IHTG urges, all for "humanity", so that America, once White, may lay herself prostrateaAnd all in service to a foreign power, who always insinuates her own aspirations with "humanity's" and any who oppose her, unhuman.

    What infection has overcome the American mind that she aborts her own just so others may live?

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  66. Someone here is channeling James Bowery. Keep up the good work.

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  67. J. and IHTG,

    You both advocate a policy for America and Americans that you would never countenance for Israel. Have you no shame?

    -bbtp

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  68. J. and IHTG,

    You both advocate a policy for America and Americans that you would never countenance for Israel. Have you no shame?


    Why did you expect any different?

    I guess I have figured out what IHTG means: I hate the Goyim.

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  69. So, J - what's your worst case scenario, supposing that the U.S. more or less bowed out of its current role as world policeman/hegemon, and went back to something more like the role it played on the international scene in the mid 19th century?

    I'm honestly curious what you think.

    Does Iran get nukes? If so, what does it do with them? In what way does it "blackmail...all of Europe?" How do the much stronger and wealthier nuclear powers Britain and France react to this blackmail? What particular risks are involved, in any such quarrel, for a relatively neutral, disengaged U.S.?

    Does China extend it's sphere of influence? Does it "patrol Japanese waters?" Does it "exercise" (whatever you mean by that) "Taiwan's occupation?" Does it "liberate" North India? If so, how do Japan (fabulously wealthy) and India (another nuclear power) react to these provocations? And, again, what particular risks are involved for a relatively neutral, disengaged U.S.? What particular "humiliations" do you see in store for us?

    In what particular ways do you envision Hugo Chavez or any other "South American dictator" threatening the "weak and impotent" U.S.? [I am particularly curious about this one, and dying to know what you were thinking, here.]

    You write: "Even the Germans have a deep dislike and resentment for having defeated them and sixty years of American occupation and will show it as soon they feel it is safe to do so."

    Well, OK, if you say so. Perhaps you'd like to expand on the possibilities for armed German aggression against the U.S. in the next few decades. I'm sure that everybody here would take great pleasure in learning your views on that interesting question.

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    1. Since it is widely acknowledge that Israel already has nukes, why shouldn't Iran have them?

      Ohhh, that's right. They are a bunch of racist anti-Semites.

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  70. If America is going to be interventionist or imperialist, then it has to be smart and ruthless about it. If it can't do that, maybe it is better to go home and allow a force more akin to the British Empire of yore to rise.

    Disraeli and the British Empire's “accomplishment” was to “solve” the rising value of labor, due to the great demand for labor in the New World, in a typically neocon manner: Go imperial and acquire more labor. The countervailing force was typically British: Invent. It is hard to imagine what might have become of Great Britain if, rather than dissipating its energies in Africa and Asia, to ultimately import those populations to its native soil, it had focused all of its energies on technical innovation.

    The problem is in the very nature of scientific knowledge. Science is defined by reproducibility. If it is reproducible outside the kin-group then, as W. D. Hamilton points out in Innate Social Aptitudes of Man:

    "Often, however, the cost in fitness of such altruism and sublimated pugnacity to the individuals concerned is by no means metaphorical, and the benefits to fitness, such as they are, go to a mass of individuals whose genetic correlation with the innovator must be slight indeed. Thus civilization probably slowly reduces its altruism of all kinds, including the kinds needed for cultural creativity (see also Eshel 1972)."

    This used to be somewhat protected by differing languages, but of course one of the first attributes acquired by a mobile, mercantile, middle-man minority culture is facility in foreign language acquisition. About the only thing you can do is keep out the merchants and anthropologists and appear to all to be a primitive people wielding stone-age technologies—while, somehow, all who threaten to invade seem to drop like flies or seem just to do something else more “interesting”.

    People like Disraeli who run around forcing billions of foreign people to speak your native tongue and impose trade and communication are perhaps the worst sort of enemy to a creative nation.

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  71. "J Jan 24, 2012 09:46 PM

    You are too smart to believe in your own reductio ad absurdum arguments. You pretend that I believe that there are no options but (1) Juche-ist cartoon isolationism and (2) "a bully, a whore and a thief" country. You seem to pretend that I prophesy that isolationism will turn Americans into Flores hobbits. Or in the best of the cases, into North Korean famished dwarves."

    Then why did you bring up the Flores islands and North Korea? You seemed to be suggesting that isolationism - a thing that never actually meant what the boosters of empire claim it did - could lead to these things. Charles Lindbergh was an isolationist; he did not want to turn the U.S. into Albania, he just didn't want it to be overinvested in the affairs of other nations.

    "What I am saying that isolationism would surely impoverish America, intellectually and economically."

    We have aggressively practiced empire for sixty years now, and practiced it for the last twenty years as a virtual hegemon - and it is impoverishing us, intellectually and economically.

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    1. Martin B., Bringing up Lindbergh is not really an argument for or against isolationism, because Lindbergh's world was very different from ours: There was a big war under preparation in Europe and America was to be involved as an ally of the British Empire against Germany. Lindbergh position was let the Germans win or let us fight with the Germans against the Brits. I dont remember Lindbergh criticizing American intervention in Nicaragua or other South American countries nor American deployment in China and other Asian countries.

      I agree that in the last twenty years America is slowly losing its pre-eminent position, but in my opinion the main factor is the rise of a new constellation of strong competitors in Asia, in Europe and even Brasil. If you want to throw in the loss of ethnic homogeneity and of religion in America, I'll not contradict you.

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    2. "J Jan 26, 2012 08:07 AM

      Lindbergh position was let the Germans win or let us fight with the Germans against the Brits."

      This is a cartoon characterization of Lindbergh's beliefs, which has been promulgated by anti-"anti-semites". Unless you prove otherwise, I reject your assertion.

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  72. What the hell is this philistinism. The advance of humanity depends on the smartest minds in the world communicating with each other.

    The “comparative advantage” theocracy defines security in terms of trade route stability rather than independence from trade. To this theocracy it is heresy to suggest that “national security” be founded on national self-sufficiency because the first and foremost objective must be to avoid war in any form, including “trade war” (we don’t need to even mention individual warfare such as “duels” nowadays, do we?). A nation that attempts to retain indigenous capabilities for the purpose of security is the moral equivalent of a family living far from any urban areas that educates their own children and “stockpiles” food, ie: “a clear and present danger”.

    From this perspective the deindustrialization of America (deagriculturalization would be more difficult) was akin to confiscating a rural family’s tools, or imposing regulations on local trade (ie: FDA laws against local trade in food production) so they have to specialize. This is real meaning of the authoritative injunction “Get a job.” At an international level it is a demand that a nation become dependent on trade. Independence is hate, "philistinism", etc.

    They don’t really care about economics in terms of risk adjusted net present value. If they did, they’d realize that investing in trade route stability is sometimes less profitable than investing in independence. Their goal is to enslave humanity because it feels right to them and all of their economic theories are window dressing for what is essentially a theocracy whose only real god is their truly “supremacist” predilection. Economics be damned if they can’t have slaves to boss around.

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  73. The advance of humanity depends on the smartest minds in the world communicating with each other.

    Communication is not some kind of magic that automatically leads to "the advance of humanity" and space colonies, utopias, etc.

    Much of what's considered "communication" isn't actually even communication.

    Verbal communication, or, more generally "memes" involves replicators -- mind viruses, mind parasites, etc -- that are undergoing continual engineering by interested parties.

    The evolution of communication -- as opposed to manipulation -- is very much akin to the evolution of altruism. It is subject to the same exploits in a cosmopolitan environment. So manipulation via signaling taking on the appearance of communication is far more common in the present environment than in the environment in which communication evolved. We're in an evolutionary arms race to defect faster than the other guy while maintaining keeping active his obsolete instincts to think communication is still viable.

    The end result of civilization is a bifurcation: 1) communication terminates as a genetic capacity and/or 2) communication takes a form similar to that in eusocial species even as civilization takes that form.

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  74. This debate is stupid.

    J and IHTG argue in bad faith. This is not simply about "republic vs. empire" in the abstract.

    It is based on their presumption that the American empire is relatively pro-Israel and can be influenced in a pro-Israel direction.

    If the American empire were staunchly pro-Arab or anti-Israel, they would either be wary and critical of empire generally, or they would be supportive of alternative imperial patrons that they believed were or could be pro-Israel.

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    1. I haven't argued in favor of American empire anywhere here.

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  75. "It is hard to imagine what might have become of Great Britain if, rather than dissipating its energies in Africa and Asia, to ultimately import those populations to its native soil, it had focused all of its energies on technical innovation."

    Interesting thought - and similarly the US post WWII - just sat home and invented stuff.

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  76. I just don't get why this stuff about immigration isn't blindingly obvious to anyone with an IQ above 90 in D.C.. Import the Third World, become more third world. But why can't I think of one congressman who says this? Frum gets it. But why not Friedman or Sullivan or Tina Brown. Is it just because they're afraid of the PC police?

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