Wednesday, March 30, 2011

The Inner Nature of the U.S.

Richard Spencer, after a discussion of the extent to which Russia is anti-PC and open to the possibility of systematic, genetic differences between races, writes:
Looking at the outcome of the 20th century from a Hegelian standpoint, one might suggest that it was America that was on the left—and the post-Lenin USSR, on the right—all along; tag lines like “capitalism” and “socialism” simply obfuscated the inner natures of each regime.

Whether Russia is simply behind America—and will soon follow it into cultural decadence—or is truly charting an independent course remains to be seen.
While I'm not sure whether anything can usefully be looked at from a Hegelian standpoint, Hegel having been one of the most deliberately obfuscating philosophers ever to have lived, Spencer's core idea here about the inner natures of Russia and America is an interesting one. In a couple of posts on this blog (American Diversity Outreach and Permanent Revolution), we've* tried to make the case that the U.S. comprises the locus for the spread of diversity, "democracy", and in general making the world safe for the project of the globalists. Other nations - such as in one of our examples, France - still have a residual, nearly reactionary sense of self, which various organs of the U.S. such as the State Department feel the need to break down. The globalist project of democracy and diversity, which effectively means the breaking down of Western nations plus one or two in the East, such as Japan, cannot succeed so long as some of these nations maintain a stubborn sense of self and of particularity.

So, what about the "inner natures" of Russia and the U.S.? It would appear that, despite many decades of Communism and dictatorial oppression, the Russians have maintained a robust sense of nation, and are not easily swayed by diversity propaganda, most of which appears to emanate from the U.S. government and the American media. Perhaps one of the reasons for Russia's nationalism is that it has benefited much less, or even harmed, by a globalized economy. The nations of North America and Western Europe have until recently been happy to go along with the globalist project so long as incomes were rising.

Can any nation, such as Russia, that reflexively opposes the policies of FedGov, be all bad? The debacles of American foreign intervention and the reasons for undertaking them, from Kosovo to Iraq and Afghanistan to Libya, as well as the strident calls for ever more immigration, demonstrate which nation is the source of global revolution, the imposition of diversity, and the deconstruction of Western peoples. It is our nation.

*Not the editorial "we", but a literal one which includes commenters.

148 comments:

  1. I imagine people will eventually bring up the role of Jews in Russia's recent history.
    It's worth pointing out that rather than the Jews transforming Soviet Russia into some leftist utopia, it was Russia that eventually transformed its Jews into a troublesome bunch of right-wing badasses. I guess that says it all, really.

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  2. http://www.originaldissent.com/node/581

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  3. Dennis, just curious, did you shut off commenting for the Alexandra Wallace thread?

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  4. Chris: yes. I figured that what everyone wanted to say had been said.

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  5. Hegel (who died in 1831) doesn't have a lot to do directly with the modern "left/right" division, it's more a matter of the Jacobin/Marxist left versus the Burkean/libertarian right, at least in the Anglo-American political tradition.

    The reading of Hegel as an apostle of state power runs both ways politically, which is why the battle of Stalingrad has been described as "the ultimate confrontation between the right-Hegelians and the left-Hegelians".

    I find persuasive the proposition that the U.S.A. was in essence a Jacobin state at its birth, and is now reverting to form under the influence of Marxism's most enduring legacy, namely that of internationalism. The essentially Burkean argument that America ought to maintain the cultural and racial unity that has served it so well is, to put it mildly, a non-starter in polite discourse, to say nothing of public affairs.

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  6. alonzo portfolioMar 30, 2011 11:55 AM

    I really think you have to decouple "diversity" from "the debacles of American foreign intervention." With respect to the U.S., if we didn't have diversity mania and NAM's were under proper social control, there might even be more enthusiasm for foreign intervention, just to relieve the boredom of domestic success, but the stated justification would be a specifically American interest rather than global "democracy."

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  7. The four doormen of the apocalypseMar 30, 2011 12:34 PM

    It would seem that the USSR fractured into a bunch of ethnically-based states and Mother Russia (which still has some multi-ethnic issues).

    Perhaps that is what will happen to the remaining empire.

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  8. IHTG:

    Can you explain your view that Russian Jews are right wing? The oligarchs seem like pretty conventional transnational progressives to me, and it seems like the ones who moved to Israel are "right wing" only in the sense that they are somewhat more ethnocentric than the average Israeli Jew.

    Am I wrong?

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  9. The four doormen of the apocalypseMar 30, 2011 12:43 PM

    Wandrin, what an interesting book. That same page is available at the Google books preview as well, although perhaps you sought to avoid google :-)

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  10. You seem to be saying, Mr Mangan, that America is the problem not the solution.

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  11. Can you explain your view that Russian Jews are right wing? The oligarchs seem like pretty conventional transnational progressives to me

    The oligarchs are a very small, elite group. You can't characterize the wider Russian Jewish population by looking at them.
    I wouldn't call them "transnational progressives", though. They aren't a bunch of George Soroses.

    and it seems like the ones who moved to Israel are "right wing" only in the sense that they are somewhat more ethnocentric than the average Israeli Jew.

    You're correct, in the sense that they aren't Anglo-American style Burkean or conservative "right wingers". Very few Israeli Jews are. However, in America, you do get the Volokh Conspiracy types who have assimilated some Anglo-style rightism.

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  12. You seem to be saying, Mr Mangan, that America is the problem not the solution

    That's what I'm saying.

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  13. I'm not sure Russia is the solution. Gangster capitalism ?

    A little insight from the London Review of Books into the working world of Russian business - in this case TV production :

    "...beyond that was the final, most important and least conspicuous of all the inconspicuous doors, with a code that few people knew: it led to the office of Tim and Ivan, and the room where the real accounts were kept. This whole elaborate set-up was intended to foil the tax police. That’s who it was the guards’ job to keep out, or keep out long enough for the back office to be cleared and the hidden back entrance put to good use.
    I asked Ivan whether all this was necessary. Couldn’t he just pay his taxes? He laughed. If he did that, he said, there would be no profit at all. No entrepreneur paid their taxes in full: it wouldn’t occur to them. Taxes, he said, were just a way for bureaucrats to buy themselves holidays in Thailand. As for the tax police, they were much happier taking bribes than going to the trouble of stealing money that had been paid in the orthodox fashion. In any case, Ivan’s profits were already squeezed by the broadcasters. Around 15 per cent of any budget went to the guy at the channel who commissioned the programme: in Russian these kick-backs are known as otkat, ‘backwash’. A British producer who refused to pay the ‘backwash’ was out of the country within a year.


    For my Russian colleagues the tax police raids were a reason to celebrate: the rest of the day was invariably a holiday (deadlines be damned) as Ivan haggled with them to keep down the size of the pay-off. ‘Only a dozen people work here,’ he would say with a wink as they looked around at the many dozens of desks, chairs and computers still warm from use. Then Ivan would bring out the fake accounts from the front office to support his case and they would sit down to negotiate, with tea and biscuits, as if this were the most normal of business deals. And in Russia it was. The word ‘bribe’ was never used. The officials would look at the fake books, which they knew perfectly well to be fake, and extract fines in line with legislation they knew Ivan did not need to comply with. So everything would be settled, and every role, pose, and line of dialogue would reproduce the ritual of legality. It was a ritual played out every day in every medium-sized business, every furniture company, restaurant, modelling agency and PR firm across the country."

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  14. Then there's the attitude that this reality engenders in Russians :

    "The fundamental premise for most Western reality shows is what people in the industry call ‘aspirational’: someone works hard and is rewarded with a wonderful new life. The shows celebrate the outstanding individual, the bright extrovert. For the Russian version of The Apprentice, Vladimir Potanin, a metals oligarch worth more than $10 billion, was recruited to be the boss choosing between the candidates competing for the dream job. Potanin goaded, teased and tortured the candidates as they went through increasingly difficult challenges. The show looked great, the stories and dramas all worked, but there was a problem: no one in Russia believed in the rules. The usual way to get a job in Russia is not by impressing at an interview, but by what is known as blat – ‘connections’. Russian society isn’t much interested in the hard-working, brilliant young business mind. Everyone knows where that type ends up: in jail like Mikhail Khodorkovsky, or in exile like the mobile phone billionaire Yevgeny Chichvarkin.

    Today’s Russia rewards the man who operates from the shadows, the grey apparatchik, the master of the politique de couloir – the man like Putin. Promotion in such a system comes from knowing how to debase yourself, how to suck up and serve your master, how to be what the Russians call a holop, a ‘toady’. Bright and extrovert and aspirational? Not if you want success. The shows that did work were based on a quite different set of principles. By far the biggest success was Posledny Geroi (‘The Last Hero’), a version of Survivor, a show based on humiliation and hardship. This chimed in Russia – a country where being bullied by the authorities is the norm."

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  15. Oswald Spengler in his Decline of the West predicted Russia would be the next civilization to rise to greatness.

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  16. I find persuasive the proposition that the U.S.A. was in essence a Jacobin state at its birth

    I've never even heard of that proposition. It's absurd in any case.

    The US only became an international busybody after WWII. It's not that way inherently, even though it is that way at present.

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  17. the Volokh Conspiracy types who have assimilated some Anglo-style rightism

    The people at VC strike me as run-of-the-mill neocons. Socially very liberal, big on foreign interventions, happy with the size of the state as it is though reluctant to grow it much bigger.

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  18. Without claiming any expertise as a historian I would say that the energy of Russia's rulers has been and continues to be occupied with maintaining a hold on an "inner" empire. That is Rus over Ukraine, White Russia, Chechnia, Georgia, The Stans and other contiguous land masses and peoples. And on those peoples the Russians have tried with greater or lesser success to put their stamp. Imperialism but "inner" imperialism.

    Which makes American imperialism - the whole nation building turning Iraqis into Iowans fantasy - look pretty blatant in comparison.

    Difference of both degree and kind but both nations are imperialist.

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  19. Spencer quote:
    Whether Russia is simply behind America—and will soon follow it into cultural decadence—or is truly charting an independent course remains to be seen.

    I had a tendency to believe that the Russians might take a different course, too. That is, until I read last year about the black politician who Russians have elected to rule over them. An African!

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  20. The history of USSR and USSA is much more interwoven that most people realize.

    The people that were responsible for turning Russia into USSR fled that country in the 30s due to prosecution by Stalin (who inherited and stole USSR from them) and ended up here in the USA. These people did not take a break after arriving here. They immediately began working on transforming USA into the USSA that we know today.

    If you want to know more, get this book and read it:
    (LINK) Jewish-Century-Yuri-Slezkine


    The big question is, who will be USSA's Stalin?

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  21. Putin holds an annual national call-in show that C-SPAN rebroadcasts. I saw the most recent one and a caller asked Putin about anti-Muslim demonstrations in Moscow. Putin said that Muslims were an integral part of the nation, and that many religious experts believed that the Russian Orthodox Church was in many ways more similar to Islam than to western Christianity. He also said that all ethnic minorities had the right to live in Russia.

    Putin is a multiculturalist.

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  22. Actually, the hardcover version of the above book is sold out. Here is the link to the paperback:

    Jewish-Century-Yuri-Slezkine-paperback

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  23. Spencer seems inordinately naive and Dennis is simply wrong about Russia following America into cultural decline.Russia was enslaved and disemboweled morally by the Soviet machine led by mass-murdering Joseph Stalin.This systematic process was exposed by Solzhenitzn, Andrei Sinyavsky, and many others over the past 30 years or so. Movies like East West reveal the brutality of life under Soviet power.Alexander Yakovlev, working for Gorbachev, had priviliged access to Soviet Presidential Achives, allowing him to view actual records of immense atrocities.Whatever wrong turns America has made, it cannot be compared in any way to the effects of the Russian Revolution.Hell really existed behind the Iron Curtain.

    Andrew Meier, an Oxford grad fluent in Russian, was the Moscow correspondant for Time magazine from 1996-2001. My own visit to Moscow was during the summer of 1995. Meier wrote Black Earth, a very depressing account of his travels across Russia and his encounters with the corrupt politics and everyday dangers of life in Russia. Indeed, Russians, in contrast to Germans, lied to generations of children who read entirely falsified accounts of Stalin and Bolshevism. The Germans told the truth about Hitler and their role in WWII, but Russia felt the need-the necessity-to lie.

    Russia is far different from America and certainly more nationalistic and autocratic. Culturally, our friends in Russia describe considerable decay which I believe was made far easier after the degradations of life under Stalin.Religion is returning but millions are atheists after communism reigned supreme. Russia, like much of Europe, loves American pop culture. Michael Jackson was a superstar and idiots like Lady Gaga are worshipped. In 1995 I rode the Moscow subway in a state of shock over the fact that hundreds of young people carried books with them and read on the train!!!!!!! Lately, however, anti-intellectualism is seeping in but perhaps not as pathologically as in America.

    Russia never experienced democracy and is almost Third World in many regards. Yet they had enormous intellectual resoures-many Jewish- and have art collections and a musical tradition second to none. Tragic and long-suffering, Russians deserve a better life but lack the institutions to achieve it. Putin, indeed, may soon be back and corruption is greater than ever. Yes, they always recognized group and individual IQ differences. Yes, they dismiss blacks as inferiors. Yes, they use a tracking system to isolate and benefit superior students, as we once did. HBD is something they unherently grasp despite being the grand laboratory for egalitarian experiments. Strange indeed that they, like the Poles, still believe that human differences are a reality that is inescapable.The Brits may have something to learn from poor Russians.

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  24. "That same page is available at the Google books preview as well, although perhaps you sought to avoid google"

    No. Why would i avoid Google?

    ricpic
    "Without claiming any expertise as a historian I would say that the energy of Russia's rulers has been and continues to be occupied with maintaining a hold on an "inner" empire."

    I think that's key. If Russia has a different "inner core" i think the root of it comes from the Mongols - similar to China perhaps - and that root leads them to want to create a buffer zone around them of client states like a shield.

    So they have an imperialist mentality but in a very different way to countries with a maritime tradition.

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  25. The Russians have been forced to make tremendous sacrifices to defend their country in the past so I would guess that has had an influence on their culture, prompting them to be wary of the emergence of threats to them. Living under a dictatorship people realize that lying is part of the system of control so they get used to reading between the lines. Unlike gullible people elsewhere they realize that many interests out there are busy trying to spin things for their own selfish purposes. Insofar as Russian "gangster capitalism" goes, just change the names and places in that story to American ones and you'll have an American tale ready to be sold on the marketplace anywhere in the world outside of the USA.

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  26. I've never even heard of that proposition. It's absurd in any case.

    The US only became an international busybody after WWII.


    No it is not absurd. It is true. The US promoted "democratic revolution" from the very beginning. The difference between pre-WW2 and post-WW2 is that after 1945, the US had the power to be much more aggressive in promoting revolution.

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  27. Russia might (and hopefully will) be able to save itself by promoting the Russian people, nature, and culture. However, this offers no hope for those of us who are not Russians and are unwilling to move there.

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  28. conservative Americans love to ignore de harsh reality that America is indeed a proposition nation. The Constitution explicitly rejects the two "most evident truths" of mankind: official religion and blood-based citizenship

    That's pure Jacobinism, and it comes straight from the founders.

    Anti-americanism throughout the world is basically the local reaction of American efforts to impose those two rejections uppon to local culture.

    it is no coincidence that leaders of Germany, France and the UK made speeches rejecting multiculturalism at the exact moment the world perceives America as a declining superpower

    Let America rebound, the unemployment rate fall to 5%, and you will see Thilo Sarrazin trown at jail and the left crush the center-right in all three countries above.

    Yet the best example comes from the Jews. America is the first country in history to lack anti-semitism, despite every single culture on Earth before it had quickly realized how poisonous Jews are leading to measures, or pogroms against them. Since America is a propostion nation, you can't define "us" in America, since the whole world can be American. If you can't define "us", you can't define "them". And the "themest" of them all, which is the Jew, feels safe for the first time since Salomon.

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  29. "Anti-americanism throughout the world is basically the local reaction of American efforts to impose those two rejections uppon to local culture."

    How many people in the world have ever met a Southern Redneck? Almost none. How many have a perfectly clear and extremely negative view of what a Southern Redneck is like despite never having met one? Almost all.

    A lot of anti-americanism comes out of Hollywood.

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  30. gig said...(or it is Yan Shen)"conservative Americans love to ignore de harsh reality that America is indeed a proposition nation. The Constitution explicitly rejects the two "most evident truths" of mankind: official religion and blood-based citizenship

    That's pure Jacobinism, and it comes straight from the founders."


    I suggest you peruse the Naturalization Act of 1790 that was written and signed into law by many of those Founders. I guess if you want to quibble, the Founders did support a multi-ethnic nation. They just supported one limited to Europeans. I think they might have shit their pants if they'd had known that in under 3 centuries half the population would become completely unrecognizable to them.

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  31. conservative Americans love to ignore de harsh reality that America is indeed a proposition nation. The Constitution explicitly rejects the two "most evident truths" of mankind: official religion and blood-based citizenship

    That's pure Jacobinism, and it comes straight from the founders.


    Founding Father John Jay, President of the Continental Congress from 1778 to 1779, co-author of the Federalist Papers, and the first Chief Justice of the United States:

    Federalist No. 2

    "Concerning Dangers from Foreign Force and Influence"

    http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed02.htm

    “With equal pleasure I have often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people - a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.


    Preamble to the United States Constitution

    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

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  32. How many people in the world have ever met a Southern Redneck? Almost none. How many have a perfectly clear and extremely negative view of what a Southern Redneck is like despite never having met one? Almost all.

    If you're talking about liberal Europeans, they think those rednecks are religious nuts, who act like their ancestors did in the 17th century. Hollywood smears the "evil white capitalist businessman", not rednecks.

    If you can't define "us", you can't define "them".

    Gig, can't "them" cut a deal with "us", and live in peace? For example, look at the relationship of the Polish people with their long-standing Tatar Muslim minority.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#Polish_Tatars
    Some assimilation, and ultra-patriotism (military service, etc),in exchange for continued distinctness as a population.

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  33. World anti-americanism is pure American.

    Harvard / NY Times / State Department puts out the official anti-American line and rewards to the best of their ability those who parrot it back.

    It's the international version of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Harvard: Americans are racists and if only there were an "authentic" voice that would critique society in exactly the manner that we do! Surprise, surprise, lots of "authentic" voices appear to (be highly paid to) complain about ill treatment due to "racism".

    The State Department does the same thing internationally. If you're anti-American (which is as American as the Declaration of Independence) and you can parrot back the State Department's critique of the Pentagon, you're showered with money and a small slice of power. Look at Libya. Khaddafi was doomed the day he quit being anti-American out of fear of the Pentagon. We're about to get a wave of new anti-American governments all of which the NY Times will explain is the fault of the United States for being too little under the influence of the NY Times and the State Department.

    Anti-Americanism is almost the exact opposite of what it is named.

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  34. show me where in the constitution is written that an American is defined as the son of American parents, as citizenship was understood in every single culture on Earth before 1776. either you write it or you deny it.

    by rejecting blood based citizenship, the founders were Jacobin in the sense that they left American citizenship open for all. Unlike Revolutionary France, they didn't start wars to spread those values immediately, because they lacked the resources

    Once America was strong enough she started fighting traditional/official religion and nationalism everywhere she found them

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  35. Americans (traditionally) are descended largely from Seafaring Raiders. Who have more ambivalent attitudes toward the state then continentals. I work in an multi-national software and electronics company where I come into contact with Belgians, Poles and Russians regularly.

    Belgians are capable bureaucrats and don't get easily distracted. If you ask a Belgian to steer into an iceberg he just might follow your orders.

    The Poles are essentially a race without the will to leadership. They are smart and capable individually, but hapless as a group.

    Russians, interesting seem more similar to Americans than the other two (in some ways), but generally are similar to Poles where individually you will find incredibly brilliant people, but they lack an "organic self organizing dynamic" that is often found here.

    As I have had more time to reflect on my fellow Americans (this is an East Coast high tech so I mean white, Anglo,Irish,German descent etc.) we really do like creative destruction. We seem to hate bureacracy (even if we could use a bit more of it) and we are easily distracted which makes our Belgian counterparts quite frustrated.

    In summary, Americans seem to have not just an ambivalent attitude toward the state, but towards destruction itself. I think we have (perhaps a fatal) confidence that destruction can always be followed by some noble rebuilding phase. Anyway, I travel to western Europe a lot, and I used to love it, but the novelty has worn off. I think the old cities are more like theme parks then places where culture is evolving, whereas in my own neck of the remote New England, stuff is happening daily and yearly that is always different then the year before and that is comforting.

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  36. "show me where in the constitution is written that an American is defined as the son of American parents, as citizenship was understood in every single culture on Earth before 1776. either you write it or you deny it."

    ...."to ourselves and our posterity"...

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  37. gig said...(or more likely Yan Shen) "show me where in the constitution is written that an American is defined as the son of American parents, as citizenship was understood in every single culture on Earth before 1776. either you write it or you deny it."

    The Constitution leaves Naturalization to be determined by the Congress. Which they immediately did when they passed Thomas Jefferson's Naturalization Act of 1790 and George Washington signed it. I guess you still have not read the summary of the Naturalization Act of 1790? So I will provide it for you: This law limited naturalization to immigrants who were "free white persons" of "good moral character". It thus, left out indentured servants, slaves, free blacks, and later Asians. While women were included in the act, the right of citizenship did "not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States...." Citizenship was inherited exclusively through the father. This was the only statute that ever purported to grant the status of natural born citizen

    While it is unfortunately true that later Congresses radically changed the intent of the Founders with legislation such as the nefarious Immigration Act of 1965, that should never be used to suggest that the Founders created a propositional nation open to the world. In fact all the naturalization acts until well into the 20th century were limited to whites. The 14th Amendment only allowed blacks born here to become citizens, it certainly did not open the door to black immigrants.

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  38. "Hollywood smears the "evil white capitalist businessman", not rednecks."

    The preppy white villain with the ultra Anglo surname is the other stock villain. You couldn't randomly pick 3 Hollywood films of the last 60 years where one of them didn't include a negative redneck stereotype. Some quick examples:

    Deliverance
    Kalifornia
    They Call Me Mr Tibbs
    To Kill a Mocking Bird
    etc

    There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples.

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  39. The US promoted "democratic revolution" from the very beginning.

    Can you give some specific examples of 19th century America promoting "democratic revolution" at gunpoint?

    after 1945, the US had the power to be much more aggressive in promoting revolution

    The US was the dominant military power in the Americas almost from its inception, yet the history books are not full of tales of Jacobinical American armies spreading democracy to Mexico, Honduras, and Argentina. On the contrary, even after 1945 the US has been more likely to use its power to set up pro-American dictatorships in Latin America. For example, in 1954 the CIA organized a coup to overthrow the democratically elected government of Guatemala.

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  40. "Can you give some specific examples of 19th century America promoting "democratic revolution" at gunpoint?"

    The Monroe Doctrine, the war between the states and the reconstruction.

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  41. ...we claim brotherhood with every European Christian, and triumph in the generosity of the sentiment.

    Thomas Paine, Common Sense

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  42. Hollywood smears the "evil white capitalist businessman", not rednecks.

    It smears both, with the evil businessman almost always having a WASP name.

    Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general is responsible for the poor image of white Southerners. A significant proportion of foreigners believes the KKK runs much of the South. I've heard Europeans, New Zealanders, and even Canadians saying as much. When Britney Spears got big in the 90s an English work colleague of mine was convinced she favoured lynching blacks simply because she's from the South. None of the people I'm thinking of read newspapers or follow world events but all watch Hollywood movies and most follow the music scene. Where else but from pop culture, especially Hollywood, would they have got such ideas from? The foreign image of ordinary white Christian Americans comes from Hollywood and New York City media.

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  43. The dictatorships the US set up in Latin America were put in place to serve the interestes of the capitalist class, not the interests of the American people. To call them "pro-American" is to buy into the lies that were used to justify these crimes.

    Latin Americans have every reason to hate the American government for killing and oppressing them in order to steal their resources. These were despicable actions taken by evil men, the same class of evil men who are now engaged in dispossessing white Americans through immigration.

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  44. It's interesting to me how different was the anti-Americanism in Europe prior to US cultural domination in the post-WW2 period.

    Bruce Bawer: nineteenth-century European aristocrats despised America as a symbol of progress, innovation, and (above all) equality, ridiculing it as a mongrel land of simple-minded Indians and blacks; later, avaricious Jews were added to the list. These stereotypes soon spread to Americans generally, resulting in today’s European-establishment view of Americans as materialistic morons.

    He continues: in 1889, Knut Hamsun denounced what he considered to be America’s sexual equality; in 1951, Agnar Mykle sneered that American mothers “raise children, not as boys and girls, but first and foremost as people who will become adults, with clean souls, well-scrubbed teeth, well-ordered hair, clean hands and a big smile.” ... But the main flash point was race: in America, complained one Norwegian writer, one “had to fight for one’s blond scalp in conflict with bloodthirsty natives.” Bjørneboe wrote in his teens that the physiognomy of immigrants to America changed after three years (“Northern and Central Europeans become Indian, Southern Europeans become Negroid”); Hamsun grumbled that the U.S., by allowing blacks to work in white restaurants, had created “a mulatto stud farm”; Mykle, spotting a mixed-race couple in New York, had “the same uncomfortable feeling as when you see a bulldog mate with a birddog.” Note that these writers were not marginal cranks: they were major literary figures. Nor were these Norwegian writers very different from their colleagues south of the Skaggerak. For an appalling number of them, America’s supreme iniquity was, as Bromark and Herbjørnsrud put it, its “project of [ethnic] blending.” Such views, which remained in the European mainstream well into the 1950s, had by the 1970s, however, been supplanted by reflexive, supercilious condemnations of American racism, the implication usually being that racial prejudices of the sort found in the U.S. were utterly foreign to Europeans.

    Link

    Nazi savagery and American cultural influence changed everything.

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  45. Conservative Swede on racial attitudes in Sweden before it became part of the American empire in 1945:
    http://conswede.blogspot.com/2008/07/social-paradigms-shift-eg-our-view-on.html
    (...)
    To illustrate what I talk about. Louis Armstrong visited Sweden in 1933. In all the news papers he was describe as something monkey-like let loose from the jungle. All across the line! And in the reviews by the most serious music critics.

    Who would have imagined in 1933, that twelve years later Western Europe would undergo an America-led cultural revolution which would lead to the common belief that there are no differences between races?

    Translation of two of the quotes:
    Knut Bäck in Göteborgs-Posten, November 1933:
    "This world is strange... No protests are raised against how the jungle is let loose into the society. Armstrong and his band are allowed to freely wreak destruction."


    Sten Broman in Sydsvenskan, November 1933:
    "Dare I say that he at times had something monkey-like about him and sometimes reminded of, according to our perceptions, a mentally disturbed person, when he pouted with his mouth or gaped it to its widest open and roared like a hoarse animal from a primeval forest."


    The third quote compares the concert with a natural disaster, and Armstrong's trumpet with a hell machine. The only good thing coming out of it, he says, is that it solves to old dispute of whether monkeys have a language.

    This is what Europe looked like, up until 1945. And since some people will live under the misconception that this was a phenomenon of the '30s, I here provide a quote from the Swedish Encyclopedia, Nordisk Familjebok, the 1876-1899 edition (here and here).

    "Psychologically the negro can be said be on the level of a child, with vivid fantasy, lack of endurance, ... can be said to lack morality rather than being immoral ... etc."
    (...)

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  46. re: Thomas Paine

    But, admitting that we were all of English descent, what does it amount to? Nothing. Britain, being now an open enemy, extinguishes every other name and title: and to say that reconciliation is our duty, is truly farcical. The first king of England, of the present line (William the Conqueror) was a Frenchman, and half the peers of England are descendants from the same country; wherefore, by the same method of reasoning, England ought to be governed by France

    From the same link. Ouch. The part in black could be used to justify the firebombing of Germany, for example. Another one from Thomas Paine:

    O! ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose not only the tyranny but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is overrun with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the Globe. Asia and Africa hath long expelled her. Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind.

    This one could be in a speech of George W Bush and could be used to support ground troops in Lybia or the removal of Saddam.

    ATBOTL

    In 1867, with huge American help, the Austrian Emperor placed by France on the throne of Mexico was shot by the largely Indian rebels.

    Well, that model, an European Prince who would by his status prevent infighting among the white oligarchy and generate the stability needed to bring more Europeans and "whiten" the country created in Brazil one of the only two stable countries in all of Latin America, the other one being Chile

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  47. Severn’s point needs addressing, however intemperately expressed: why didn’t the “Jacobin” U.S.A. spread American-style democracy throughout the Western Hemisphere (as it surely could have), and topple the autocratic empires of the European crowns? The short answer is that, well, eventually it did, to what remained of the biggest one: witness America’s triumphant hostility to Catholic, monarchical Spain as expressed in the Spanish-American War.

    But the longer answer, if Dennis will indulge me, needs a longer look. We are dealing here with the core, with the “inner nature” of the American take on government, that’s how this exchange began. Revolutionary America, I think we can all agree, was a vigorous rebuke to the European conventions of government in particular and society in general. Swept away were the notions of a landed aristocracy, of any degree of kingly rule (even of the attenuated British version), and of a state Church. This was radical stuff in its day, and the new American nation made its point with a violent revolution, a lengthy war, and the mass displacement of civilian citizens who would not accept the new order. We would see this all again only a few years later, in Revolutionary France, hence the appellation of “Jacobinism”, applied retroactively of course (which, I acknowledge, is a problem in and of itself).

    However, revolutionary America was also wedded to an explicit, efficient and de-centralizing constitutional order, which dampened the practical power of the revolutionary impulse for a very long time. Recall that that America’s first big war after the Revolution was the War of 1812, against Great Britain and its Canadian colony no less. In that conflict, only certain American states participated, others withheld all material support! Constitutional federalism was the real victor of the war: what kind of a Jacobin state was that?

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  48. In addition, the American population, as a matter of collective sentiment, was strongly wedded to formal property rights and individual liberties, which were again embedded in the Constitution. I mean, why not: what is the U.S.A if not history’s greatest real estate play, both at an individual and state level?

    These were bands of iron around the Jacobin idea of America, but they would be loosened and eventually broken by a series of hammer blows. First, the Civil War: the Constitution didn’t provide for formal secession (a great and ultimately fatal flaw), which was denied and after four bloody years. The Federal government came out much strengthened, with all the prestige that accrues to a victorious state after a big war. Then the American involvement in First World War (to make the world free of the Kaiser and safe for democracy) and particularly its aftermath, where the U.S.A. insisted on the dissolution of the monarchical states of the Central Alliance, a Jacobin outcome if ever there was one. Finally, and fatally, the administration of F.D.R., that great hero of the neocons, simply gutted the restraints on federal jurisdiction in the Constitution. Within twenty years of his death, not even a generation, the federal government was telling individual citizens, private property owners, with whom they would have to do business, an outcome unimagined, undreamt of, by the framers of the Constitution. Today, that same federal government is going to tell people they must, under force of federal law, buy health insurance, on the strength of a Constitution in which the words “hospital” “medicine” or “health” are nowhere to be found.

    So that’s the inner nature, the true character, of a revolutionary state, a Jacobin state, which also happens to be the most physically powerful and wealthiest organization in human history, the federal government of the U.S.A. Still surprised that its armed forces have attacked the government of a state, Libya, which is no conceivable threat to these United States, under the command of someone named Barack Hussein Obama? Surprised, are you, that the diplomatic resources of America are engaged on behalf of Muslim immigrants to Christian France? Don’t be: it was all baked in, as they say, long ago.

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  49. The Monroe Doctrine, the war between the states and the reconstruction.

    You're being facetious, right? Because these things are not examples of "democratic revolution", but the exact opposite.

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  50. Tom Paine had about as much impact on the politics of early America as did Robespierre. That would be none, if anyone is in doubt.

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  51. Here is an interesting story. Guess the perp. It's a surprise.

    12-year-old Staten Island boy charged with hate crime in Muslim attack
    By DOUG AUER and YOAV GONEN


    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/staten_island/muslim_bash_bust_for_tiny_terror_l8RVfAaCJ4rnQGfUn1fekI

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  52. the new American nation made its point with a violent revolution, a lengthy war, and the mass displacement of civilian citizens who would not accept the new order. We would see this all again only a few years later, in Revolutionary France, hence the appellation of “Jacobinism”, applied retroactively of course

    If "Jacobinism" is now to be used to describe any and all revolutions, wars, and displacements of the losing side, then "Jacobinism" preceded the actual Jacobins by thousands of years!

    Of course the real meaning of Jacobinism is far more specific. The Jacobins believed in eliminating all class distinctions, in the universal franchise, and government welfare for the poor. They are most accurately understood as proto-communists. They also believed in exporting their ideology to other countries by military force. They bore no resemblance to the founders of America.

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  53. why didn’t the “Jacobin” U.S.A. spread American-style democracy throughout the Western Hemisphere (as it surely could have), and topple the autocratic empires of the European crowns? The short answer is that, well, eventually it did, to what remained of the biggest one: witness America’s triumphant hostility to Catholic, monarchical Spain as expressed in the Spanish-American War.

    Except that it did not. America has never shown even the slightest interest in spreading American-style democracy to Latin America. And that includes Mexico. In fact America has expended a fair amount of energy in stamping out American-style democracy in Latin America whenever it appears there.

    The idea that the Spanish-American War was a war for democracy, of all things, is farcical. It was a war for empire, and was understood as such at the time and by historians ever since.


    First, the Civil War: the Constitution didn’t provide for formal secession (a great and ultimately fatal flaw), which was denied and after four bloody years. The Federal government came out much strengthened

    And you imagine that this is a victory for "democratic revolution"?

    Surprised, are you, that the diplomatic resources of America are engaged on behalf of Muslim immigrants to Christian France? Don’t be: it was all baked in, as they say, long ago.

    It wasn't "baked in" at all. Ideas are a constant in human affairs. The same ideas are a constant. All that changes is the relevant strength and weakness of the different ideas. What you imagine to be "Jacobin" ideas - wrongly, I must say - go back as far as the idea of the state itself.

    The idea of the powerful federal government (which you mistakenly confuse with Jacobinism) was not "baked in" to the original American idea. The original American ideas was explicitly aimed at cubing the power of the federal government. There are literally reams of papers and letters by Americans from the founding generation which make this clear.

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  54. Does it count that Americans acted as privateers on behalf of revolutionary France?

    The Monroe doctrine tried to establish the "Republican form of Government" as "Natural" for the Americas. The North conquered the south as part of a crusade for liberty, equality, and fraternity.

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  55. William Henry Harrison from Wiki:

    Appointed as minister plenipotentiary to Gran Colombia, Harrison resigned from Congress and served in his new post until March 8, 1829.[19] He arrived in Bogota on December 22, 1828. He found the condition of Colombia saddening. Harrison reported to the Secretary of State that the country was on the edge of anarchy and he thought Simón Bolívar was about to become a military dictator. While minister in Colombia, Harrison wrote a rebuke to Bolívar, stating "... the strongest of all governments is that which is most free." He called on Bolívar to encourage the development of a democracy. In response, Bolívar wrote, "The United States ... seem destined by Providence to plague America with torments in the name of freedom", a sentiment that achieved fame in Latin America.[45] When the new administration of President Andrew Jackson took office in March 1829, Harrison was recalled so they could make their own appointment to the position. He returned to the United States in June.[46]

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  56. The Monroe doctrine tried to establish the "Republican form of Government" as "Natural" for the Americas.

    Your quote marks suggest that you are quoting something, but I can't imagine what it is. The Monroe Doctrine was first enunciated by President James Monroe in the Seventh Annual State Of the Union Address in 1823.

    It's long, but the gist of it is that the European powers should stop interfering in affairs in the Americas. No mention is made of the republican form of government.

    The North conquered the south as part of a crusade for liberty, equality, and fraternity.

    I bet you believe in the tooth fairy too.

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  57. @ severn

    Someone posted a quote from this Paine dude as an argument against me and I posted two more quotes fr4om the same link.

    Except that it did not. America has never shown even the slightest interest in spreading American-style democracy to Latin America. And that includes Mexico. In fact America has expended a fair amount of energy in stamping out American-style democracy in Latin America whenever it appears there

    Are you for real?? During a very short time, from 1950 to 1975, America supported right-wing dictatorships in Latam. Already in 1976 with carter America was throwing all of them under the bus under human rights and lack of democracy concerns.

    Read what Josh posted above. No country in Latam had reached two decades of independence and people like like that William Harrison were already agitating for political rights for non-whites

    It says a lot about the propositional nature of the American nation that even with a 100 million NAMs living in it only a fringe of Americans have realized how silly it was to give them political rights.

    Already in 1867 white Mexicans were terrified to see a Habsburg Prince supported by the Emperors of France and Austria being shot and replaced by the first full-blooded Indian to rule Mexico since Cuautemoc. Because it was the democratic thing to do

    Giving political rights to NAMs is as jacobine as the guillotine

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  58. gig--

    You and Josh need to actually sit down and read some scholarly texts on American history. For the most part, the US had a hands off attitude toward Latin America because, as was repeatedly stated in the congressional debates post Mexican War, they were just too different to ever be "Americans". Kicking European powers out of the Western Hemisphere was desirable so as to keep the old world out of the New World's affairs. Simple as that--having been a colony, we wanted no more colonialism near us--not because we gave a hoot about the people South of us, but because we didn't want any wars instigated by Europeans on our door step.

    As far as American corporations and Latin natural resources go, show me one Latin engineer or scientist who invented any process or mechanism for extracting those minerals and I'll give you a dime. lastly--the French and British (mostly British) were all over Latin America developing those resources. And in their case, those corporations were either wholly or partially government owned.

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  59. "Don’t be: it was all baked in, as they say, long ago."

    Your own post is more persuasive of the opposite.

    In the beginning America was a version of England without Royalty and Aristocracy. This was an evolutionary change. The change required a revolution for miltiary reasons but the change itself was evolutionary. Most of the structure was already there and the people involved *wanted* to keep most of the existing structure. The change was to *remove* some parts of that existing structure and replace those parts with a constitution to *maintain* the new whole.

    The serpent in the garden was slavery.

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  60. gig said: @ severn

    Someone posted a quote from this Paine dude as an argument against me and I posted two more quotes fr4om the same link.


    ...

    It says a lot about the propositional nature of the American nation...

    Good for you gig or yan shen or whoever. Now that you took care of the Paine dude we are still waiting for you to reconcile your view that America is an innate propositional nation with the Naturalization Act of 1790.

    This law limited naturalization to immigrants who were "free white persons" of "good moral character". It thus, left out indentured servants, slaves, free blacks, and later Asians. While women were included in the act, the right of citizenship did "not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States...." Citizenship was inherited exclusively through the father. This was the only statute that ever purported to grant the status of natural born citizen

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  61. It should be made clear that America was not *entirely* Jacobin. The Federalists, who actually referred to the Jeffersonians as the Jacobin party, were responsible for the Naturalization Act of 1790. Of course, the Federalists eventually lost.

    It should be obvious that the Monroe doctrine (while carefully calculated to prevent any immediate military action) declared that the Western hemisphere was in essence a protectorate of the United States (though this was not always completely enforced) and that the Western hemisphere was a distinct political sphere for which the proper form of government would be republicanism.

    The main point is that American republicanism, French republicanism and Latin American republicanism are intimately connected.

    Quotes to follow.

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  62. @ RobertB

    There is a huge difference between America's willingness to promote democracy and her ability to do so. From Josh's post, it is quite clear that America had the first but not the latter already in the 1820s. And it is not only me and Josh, but both of us and Simon Bolivar himself complaining about America deranged efforts to impose universal suffrage in Latam.

    And I said nothing about US corporations x natural resources

    @ severn

    You know that by your own quote America in 1790 would allow Zinedine Zidane adn Mohammed Khattami as immigrants and then citizens? And the whole of Bosnia and Albania? That's what lack of blood-based citizenship ("we the founders define an American as son of American parents") and official religion causes.

    And since America threatened France and Austria with war, by moving her army to the Mexican border in 1867, should they try to save maximilian, thus giving Mexico its first full-blooded Indian ruler in 350 years... Then you begin to see why white Mexicans hate America so much and why they do everything they can to dump their lower classes North of Rio Grande.

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  63. "The first liberator,
    Miranda, was a man of good family, a native of
    Caracas, in Venezuela, and a wanderer of much
    experience. 4 Born in 1754, he had fought in the
    American revolution with the French allies, and had there formed the resolution to repeat the process in
    his own land. Years of travel over all of Europe,
    broken into by service at the head of a French
    republican brigade, and by visits to London and con-
    ferences with British and American statesmen, had
    confirmed the resolution"

    Monroe to Poinsett who was dispatched as "an unofficial but accredited agent for seamen
    and commerce"(1811):

    "to erect themselves into
    independent States, excites great interest here. As
    Inhabitants of the same Hemisphere, as Neighbors,
    the United States cannot be unfeeling Spectators of
    so important a moment [movement?]. The destiny
    of these provinces must depend on themselves.
    Should such a revolution however take place, it can-
    not be doubted that our relation with them will be
    more intimate, and our friendship stronger than it
    can be while they are colonies of any European
    power."

    "The
    military events on the frontiers are told with con-
    siderable exactness, and original bulletins of the
    junta and the liberating army are frequently en-
    closed. At times the agents themselves played a
    part in the local events. Poinsett went from Buenos
    Ayres into Chile, there to make friends with the
    Carreras and fight in their armies...he
    returned to the United States to be congratulated
    by Monroe in the name of the President on the
    ability, zeal and success with which he had conducted
    his delicate mission."

    "Based upon the great proclamation of
    the first President, and enacted in 1794, the law con-
    templated wars between independent States. So far
    it was correct in spirit and formulated for the first
    time the principles of international law upon the sub-
    ject. But the law was difficult of execution, for no
    authority was given in it for the seizure of vessels
    suspected of intention to violate neutrality,...Through these inadequacies in the law, the sym-
    pathies and commercial interests of the Americans
    had come to the support of the southern patriots.
    Blank commissions for privateers issued from the
    South American capitals in shoals, and from Balti-
    more the vessels thus equipped put out to prey upon
    Spanish commerce;"


    etc. etc. etc.

    from this book:



    http://www.archive.org/stream/independenceofso00paxsuoft/independenceofso00paxsuoft_djvu.txt

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  64. Off topic: one of my favorite blogs - scroll down to Happy Day.

    http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

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  65. @ robertB & severn

    Could any of you explain to me why America was the first country (and I say country, not nation) in the world without antisemitism? I mean the real thing, pogroms, mass expulsions, measures from the highest executive authority in land against Jews??

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  66. http://books.google.com/books?id=C5I1AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Henry+Marie+Brackenridge&hl=en&ei=39GVTciNGYragQf0rbTUCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Henry Marie Brackenridge, United States. Commission to Investigate the Spanish Provinces of South America (1817-18). See in particular his "letter on South American Affairs" with the telling byline "An American".

    THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN THEY MUST BE FREE!" and "TO PREPARE THE WAY FOR THE MOST SPLENDID REVOLUTION, THAT HAS EVER BEEN WITNESSED ON THE EARTH" are pretty great out of context quotes, if only because the all-capsies is actually the author. This was our neutral observer of the " The progress of the revolution
    in the Spanish Provinces,"" which has
    always been interesting to the U. States" (James Monroe).

    ReplyDelete
  67. Could any of you explain to me why America was the first country (and I say country, not nation) in the world without antisemitism?

    America is very young, as countries go.

    But I don't accept your assertion that every other country has engaged in "pogroms, mass expulsions, measures from the highest executive authority in land against Jews".

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  68. It should be made clear that America was not *entirely* Jacobin.

    Yeah, in the "not even slightly" sense of "not entirely".


    The main point is that American republicanism, French republicanism and Latin American republicanism are intimately connected

    Well, they all have "republicanism" in their names!

    Let's be clear here - do you and gigi regard republicanism as a bad thing? Do you consider monarchy to be a superior form of government? Because you are coming very close to saying that.

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  69. "You know that by your own quote America in 1790 would allow Zinedine Zidane adn Mohammed Khattami as immigrants and then citizens?"

    Maybe but even if so it would have led to an attempt to define White on narrower terms which is exactly what happened in the 1920s and earlier but the attempt to preserve America for their posterity was defeated through the ideas of Boas and his numerous helpers in the media and academia.

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  70. It says a lot about the propositional nature of the American nation that even with a 100 million NAMs living in it only a fringe of Americans have realized how silly it was to give them political rights.

    Bit by bit, your true beliefs are coming out. You are fine with the existence of NAM's in the US, you just don't think that they should be given political rights. Your ideal state is pre-apartheid South Africa, right?


    No country in Latam had reached two decades of independence and people like like that William Harrison were already agitating for political rights for non-whites

    You're moving the goalposts. The claim that America was a Jacobin state means that America should have invaded the countries of Latin America. The America ambassador to New Granada having a chat with Simon Bolivar does not actually constitute Jacobinism.

    And I notice that once again you make your real objection clear - you object to political rights for non-whites.

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  71. Darwin Dude ...Apr 1, 2011 09:17 AM

    Severn said:

    And I notice that once again you make your real objection clear - you object to political rights for non-whites.


    Are you Jewish Severn? You seem to be playing the game of "Let's pretend that I care about everyone so I can manipulate people."

    I think a case can be made that universal suffrage has been a boon to the political animals only.

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  72. I think a case can be made that universal suffrage has been a boon to the political animals only.

    I think a lot of commneters here cross the line from "white nationalism" to "white supremacism".

    Are you Jewish Severn?

    Don't you have a rock to crawl back under?

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  73. pogroms, mass expulsions, measures from the highest executive authority in land against Jews

    I've noted this in the past, but I think it bears repeating: the Jewish-supremacists and the Jew-haters talk using eerily similar language.

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  74. "Do you consider monarchy to be a superior form of government?"

    Yes.

    ReplyDelete
  75. "Could any of you explain to me why America was the first country (and I say country, not nation) in the world without antisemitism?"

    Ironically enough your question reflects an ethno-centric by default view. To you it's why isn't there anti-semitism by dafault in the same way Jews have anti-Whitism as a default. The question for people who aren't ethno-centric by default is why is there anti-semitism not why there isn't. Isn't should be the default.

    America initially came out of England and England had had very little experience of Jews from the time they were expelled in 1290 until they were allowed back in around the 1640s. People will forget why they were originally hostile to a group if that group is removed for a long time.

    As far as i'm aware there weren't any

    "pogroms, mass expulsions, measures from the highest executive authority in land against Jews??"

    in England (or Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc) from the Jews were allowed back for the same reason there wasn't in America. There is no reason to do things like that until a group are considered to be a threat.


    Numbers. If you believe Jews are hostile then the harm done will be proportional to their numbers and the reaction to that harm will be proportional to the amount of harm. If you believe hostility to Jews is irrational prejudice then it will still also be proportional to numbers. The numbers before the 1880s were too low for either reaction and ony became so over the following decades.


    Mass media. In the past the Church was the only mass media. Dominance of the modern mass media provided the means to suppress the harm being done through misdirection, blocking the reporting of spy trials, ethnicity of fraudsters etc.

    So in nutshell anti-semitism is a reaction to Jewish behaviour* and in America's case

    1. Experience. America had little or no prior (recent) experience of Jewish behaviour.
    2. Numbers. Jewish behaviour is less noticeable when in small numbers (and also probably different in kind also) and numbers were low until the 1880s onwards.
    3. Media domination. The point where the number of Jews in America would have begun to create the usual anti-semitism coincided with the development of mass media which after a bumpy ride in the early part of the century led to Jews being able to largely suppress public knowledge of Jewish behaviour.

    (*The same argument applies whether you believe the Jewish behaviour in question is nepotism and hostility or fully merited but disproportionate success leading to jealousy. It's just a question of time, numbers and public exposure.)


    It was nothing to do with America being "baked in" as a proposition nation from the start because it wasn't. That was a later distortion - although in my view partly an inevitable consequence of the anomaly of black slavery combined with the universal morality trait and not only the result of hostile activism. The crack was there already because of slavery. Jews just exploited the crack.

    The proof will come in the future when there is the same kind of anti-semitism in America (or whatever America is called by then) as there has always been elsewhere in history because even if White people are successfully wiped out the other ethnic groups who watched and helped will wonder who's next?

    Or put another way the US Stalin will probably be Mexican for the same reason the Soviet one was a Georgian.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Could any of you explain to me why America was the first country (and I say country, not nation) in the world without antisemitism? I mean the real thing, pogroms, mass expulsions, measures from the highest executive authority in land against Jews??

    Lack of anti-semitism in America's first century was not unique. Were the Dutch, Swedes, French, or British into "the real thing" as you put it during the 19th century? No. Ditto the other ex-colonies of Britain and even Spain. Do-gooderism was not uncommon in the British and French empires. All the European nations, including the US, (indeed all nations on earth) have had tendencies and weaknesses that internal enemies could exploit, yet for all of our history these were kept in check until approximately WW2. The answer to what happened is not going to be found in the 1770s.

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  77. "Do you consider monarchy to be a superior form of government?"

    Yes.

    So, you regard the American Revolution as a mistake? We'd be better off under the British monarchy?

    If not, which particular monarchy do you believe should be ruling the place currently called the United States of America?

    Also, do you favor absolute monarchy or aristocracy?

    Do you believe that Western civilization started to go downhill went King John was forced to sign the Magna Carta in 1215?

    ReplyDelete
  78. I think a lot of commneters here cross the line from "white nationalism" to "white supremacism".

    And what is wrong exactly, with believing Whites to be supreme?

    ReplyDelete
  79. Maybe but even if so it would have led to an attempt to define White on narrower terms which is exactly what happened in the 1920s and earlier but the attempt to preserve America for their posterity was defeated through the ideas of Boas and his numerous helpers in the media and academia.

    Not in the way that you (and people like Ben Tillman) think, though. The sort of "hard determinism" being propounded at the time (and being propounded again today) is intrinsically distasteful. Whereas people may not have had so much problem with accepting its basic tenets were they more reasonably stated, the ferocity with which they were propounded provided exactly the spark necessary for people to latch on to whatever plausible reason they could find to disregard them.

    You might wonder where my evidence for any of this is. The answer is it's just basic human nature, so the assumption should be this sort of reasoning was occurring in the privacy of people's minds. If you begin with the opposite assumption, that what people think in the privacy of their minds makes no difference to what they'll publicly support or disavow, then you'll remain baffled and/or resort to conspiratorial thinking to explain away historical occurrences whose ramifications displease you.

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  80. Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general is responsible for the poor image of white Southerners.

    Well, I think the liberal news media is more responsible. Hollywood can't afford to knock Southerners too much since they also need to, you know, sell movies to these people.
    Personally, the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Southerners in the movies is Nick Cage's heroic character in Con Air, but I have kind of a thing for cheesy action flicks...
    Also, one should note that even in a movie like Deliverance, the protagonists were themselves Southerners - urban ones, from Atlanta.

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  81. Whatever the source of bigotry against white Southerners, having lived in California almost all my life I can say that I've heard Californians make bigoted remarks about Southerners often. It's considered OK to do so in polite company too. Most white liberal Californians probably, in my estimation, consider white Southerners to be nothing but ignorant, "Bible-thumping" rednecks, and they're not shy about saying so. Whereas if anyone said anything in their presence to the effect that illegal aliens were generally an ignorant lot, there would be shouts of racism filling the air.

    The image of Southerners as nearly less-than-human is completely acceptable among liberals.

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  82. And what is wrong exactly, with believing Whites to be supreme?

    It leads to the concurrent belief, displayed in abundance on this thread, that whites should rule over others. That a white minority should rule over a non-white majority.

    It's almost the opposite of white nationalism - it's white imperialism. In fact, it leads easily to things such as the American wars in Iraq and Libya which Dennis objects to above.. Since we're superior to those brown-skinned people, it is our obligation to put their affairs in order for them.

    ReplyDelete
  83. "Not in the way that you (and people like Ben Tillman) think, though."

    Precisely in the way i think.

    You have a group of people who are motivated say 40% by simple ethno-centrism and 60% by universal values.

    You have small amounts of immigration from outside the original ethnies and the original people get a little restless but don't react greatly.

    If the numbers pass some trigger level then the original population starts to look for a reason to stop it mostly out of simple ethno-centrism or maybe mixed with some early experience that Diversity Kills.

    Some will oppose the immigration on the basis of simple ethno-centrism, however some, i'd say most, also need a reason why the universal rules shouldn't apply or some modification of the universal rules that gains common assent.

    The quick compromise they came up with was an immigration policy based on maintaining the existing proportions. This was a simple, fairist, type argument that side stepped the core issues.

    Not side-stepping the issues, or "Hard Determinsim" as you put it, would have required a scientific definition of race and widely accepted proof that it mattered for the public good. This is what the universal morality people need. Exceptions to the rule need to have a valid reason for that exception e.g Diversity Kills or proof that diversity destroys all social capital and makes every metric of the common good worse than it would otherwise be.

    The process of creating that definition and the beginning of various pseudo-scientific and some scientific explanations for why race matters was starting behind the scenes. However Boas and people like him managed to successfully head this process off before it could take root.

    That's what i think happened.

    .


    "is intrinsically distasteful"

    Diversity Kills. This simple empirical truth is being suppressed by the media all over the western world. There have already been millions of casualties and one way or another there will be tens of millions more before it's over. That is more distasteful.

    Plus race realism isn't that distasteful even if you're a universalist when you realise it's just biology. Diversity Kills like water flows downhill. It's just one of those things.

    However you're right the language used is important as universal morality people find non-universal morality concepts hard to accept as the sole basis for their public code. In private of course they can be as hypocritical as anyone else but publically the code needs to be internally consistent.


    .


    Anyway, separate from that it is interesting how the two moralities show up even in discussing the two moralities.

    Ethnic groups that are based on kin-morality would automatically and instinctively adopt an immigration policy based strictly on blood in their own country if they had one. That is their assumed default because that is how they think.

    (Most of the countries providing immigrants to the US have immigration policies like that.)

    So people with that kind of kin-morality outlook take the lack of a blood immigration policy or the lack of any immigration policy at all in France or England or America back in the past as proof those people *wanted* limitless immigration from other ethnic groups or that they didn't mind, whereas what happened in reality was those less ethno-centric people didn't think of it until it became a problem.

    In a nutshell, because White people aren't as *instinctively* ethno-centric as them, and only generate it in response to external pressure, they take that as somehow proof of consent.

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  84. So, you regard the American Revolution as a mistake? We'd be better off under the British monarchy?

    Yes

    If not, which particular monarchy do you believe should be ruling the place currently called the United States of America?

    The heir to the Stuarts is on the throne in Liechtenstein, but it doesn't really matter. The proposition is so impossible that mine is a philosophical position, not a practical one.

    Also, do you favor absolute monarchy or aristocracy?

    Yes, and yes. Why are these mutually exclusive?

    Do you believe that Western civilization started to go downhill went King John was forced to sign the Magna Carta in 1215?

    Depends what you mean by start to go downhill. There are many forces involved in civilization. I'll say this, I think you could argue that some derivative (as in rate of rate of change) of some particular vector probably went negative around 1215.

    " Since we're superior to those brown-skinned people, it is our obligation to put their affairs in order for them."

    I don't agree with how you put it nor do I support taking up the white man's burden, but the argument certainly isn't as open and shut as you imply. See: Rhodesia.

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  85. Severn: Since we're superior to those brown-skinned people, it is our obligation to put their affairs in order for them.

    Bingo! White liberalism in a nutshell.

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  86. It leads to the concurrent belief, displayed in abundance on this thread, that whites should rule over others.

    Yes, but if it is true that Whites are indeed superior to other races, then is it your suggestion that we suppress the truth that presents itself so readily?

    Additionally, it does not necessarily lead to the belief in administrative imperialism. It can in some folks. And, in addition to that, perhaps those folks would be fulfilling their purpose by reigning in benevolent hegemony over their non-white hordes, who, might actually be better off under the jurisdiction of superior administrators. It isn't my plan to meddle, but it also doesn't really concern me if others want to meddle as long as they aren't coercing me to do so.

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  87. Diversity Kills.

    Yes. But unfortunately, the only inoculation for xenophilia is diversity.

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  88. danilej is correct. You can believe in the superiority of your own race without wanting or needing to dominate others. I certainly believe Western civilization as passed down to us since the Greeks is vastly superior to anything else the other races have come up with.

    There was an article over at Alternative Right recently about how Africa should be left as a vast nature reseve with the human inhabitants left to their own skills at survival without any outside help or assistance. If I had my way, that is exactly what would happen as long as the remaining whites are given a choice to leave or carve out their own homeland. Better for everyone.

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  89. "It leads to the concurrent belief, displayed in abundance on this thread, that whites should rule over others."

    Not for me. It leads to the belief that everyone (and whites in particular) are much better off in 98% homogenous ethno-states or ethno-enclaves.

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  90. "Yes. But unfortunately, the only inoculation for xenophilia is diversity."

    Yes, if we survive and diversity kills is proven scientifically and codified in law it will make us stronger.

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  91. "Dennis Mangan said...

    The image of Southerners as nearly less-than-human is completely acceptable among liberals."

    Yes. As an example, consider the derision and undisguised hatred that James Howard Kunstler routinely ladles on southerners. What is funny about that, is that it is southerners - far more than Kunstlers genteel liberal friends - who are more likely to be prepared for the kind of apocalpyse which Kunstler predicts on a near weekly basis.

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  92. There is really no doubt about 2 propositions:

    1) The United States, from the very day of its foundation was on the left.

    Everyone (here) understands that the left is simply in favor of the next step towards chaos. At the time of the American revolution, the American patriots argued that they could not be taxed without being represented in Parliament. They also argued that they could never be represented in Parliament because they could be out voted and that Parliament was unrepresentative due to rotten boroughs. From Sydney George Foster's The True History of the American Revolution (highly recommended):

    "The seven million people who had no direct representation were nevertheless virtually represented by all the members of Parliament, and in the same way the colonists were virtually represented.

    This was the only sort of representation which the majority of Englishmen recognized or understood, and they maintained it down into our own time [the book was written in the early 20th century]. The American systematic representation by small districts, giving an approximately equal and thorough representation, was not only unrecognized but regarded as a mere radical and dangerous dream of philosophers and visionaries."

    In other words, the positions of the founding fathers were as radical as could possibly occur at the time. The left in 1920 didn't argue for what we have in 2010 and if you've been persuaded by the rhetoric of then, well, you've been duped because it was never going to stop with 1776 or 1865 or 1932 or 1955 or 1968 or whenever your "conservative" beliefs say is the end point. I'm sure you can dig up writings from each of those times and find some of it persuasive. The revolution of 1776 wasn't really different.

    2) The ethnic makeup of the ruling class of the United States has changed substantially over the last 70 or so years.

    Point (1) doesn't imply that the radical change in the ethnic make up of the elites during the 20th century hasn't been tremendously important. Without imputing "evil" to the dominant group in the United States today, of the groups that have a large enough smart fraction to run a state, they are the one of the worst possible groups to lead other groups. Descendants of a clannish group of merchants clearly make worse rulers than descendants of a ruling class.

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  93. There is really no doubt about 2 propositions:

    1) The United States, from the very day of its foundation was on the left.

    And there really is no doubt about this because you and Sydney George Fisher (not Foster) say so?


    The seven million people who had no direct representation were nevertheless virtually represented by all the members of Parliament, and in the same way the colonists were virtually represented.

    Do you realize how nutty that sounds? "Virtually represented" is like the "virtual wall" - the "virtual" negates the word which follows it.

    Al of you pining for the days of King George (and there are a remarkable number of you) should take a hard look at modern Britain. There but for the grace of the "left-wing" Founding Fathers are we.

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  94. it was never going to stop with 1776 or 1865 or 1932 or 1955 or 1968 or whenever your "conservative" beliefs say is the end point.


    As I pointed out above, the logical end point of your outlook is that things all started going downhill in 1215 when those radical left wing barons forced the rightful king to accept that they had rights which he could not infringe on.

    And the so-called Glorious Revolution? Akin to the Bolsheviks overthrowing the Czar!

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  95. This thread has gone way south. The issue is race and multiculturalism, not democracy. The question is when did the U.S. get taken over by people whose highest goal is the extermination of white people, and the answer is pretty much when the power of television kicked in.

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  96. "The image of Southerners as nearly less-than-human is completely acceptable among liberals."


    Whenever I run into people who think PC applies to all groups, I point out to them how whites from the south are portrayed. It is routine to hear words like ‘hillbilly’ and ‘redneck’ on radio and t.v. and to also hear southern accents done in a mocking way.

    To give one specific example, there is a guy named Dan Bernstein on a sports radio station in Chicago. He is a liberal SWPL Jew and might be the perfect form of the type. I stopped listening to his show over a year ago. When I did listen, it was fairly routine to hear him say things about southern whites that if said by someone else about blacks or Jews would mean almost instant termination. The guy simply didn’t bother to hide his contempt and hatred for whites in the south. Actually, I think it was all whites period, but he wasn’t as explicit about that. To the best of my knowledge, he has never paid any price (reprimands or suspensions) for his views. Why should he when they aren’t remotely un-PC?

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  97. Anonymous: "This thread has gone way south. The issue is race and multiculturalism, not democracy. The question is when did the U.S. get taken over by people whose highest goal is the extermination of white people, and the answer is pretty much when the power of television kicked in."

    I think so. Before then, the technology didn't exist to allow an insular, intelligent, aggressive minority persistently to sway the democratic process. Till then, the safeguards devised in the print era for the print era were adequate.

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  98. Severn,

    You're out of your element.

    Nobody pines for King George, maybe for Charles, but not George. England and the US suffer from the same disease, which was evident in England well before the American revolution.

    I also think you overstate the practical import of the Magna Carta. The nobles already has right that the King could not legally violate. Whether he could could in reality violate them was a practical matter both before and after the signing. In fact, the Magan Carta mostly grants deeds for preexisting rights.

    You may wish to note that nearly the entire charter was repealed between 1828 and 1969. Must has been those dastardly royals.

    A better turning point, if such a thing can be said to exist (the concept of historical turning points reeks of teleology and whig history IMO) would probably be the reformation which spawned the enlightenment and new theories of sovereignty which have only served to expand Power o use DeJouvenel's term.

    Power is always to some extent reliant on obedience which is a function of custom and philosophy. The absolute King was for a number of reasons far more limited than the "People's government". After all, why should the people limit themselves?

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  99. As I pointed out above, the logical end point of your outlook is that things all started going downhill in 1215 when those radical left wing barons forced the rightful king to accept that they had rights which he could not infringe on.

    And the so-called Glorious Revolution? Akin to the Bolsheviks overthrowing the Czar!


    You say this like it is a ridiculous concept; that ideas and philosophies grown organically over time until they take a new shape.

    So it's more likely that a handful of Jewish intellectuals in the early 20th century permanently rerouted the course of Western history in less than a generation to something fundamentally different than what it has been before?

    To anyone with a brain the idea that there was a completely radical shift that happened all at once and was totally unpredictable is what sounds ridiculous.

    The issue isn't just the Glorious Revolution, but the preceding English Civil War and Protectorate period in which there was no King at all. That the Whigs were in power during the American Revolution and essentially let America win because they commiserated with their left-wing ideology and quickly followed suit. So yeah, look at Britain today, but don't fail to look at it in the 18th century either. It had already started down that road just like America.

    The poster you are rebutting said the American colonists had the same kind of parliamentary power that nearly all English did, which was the point. Instead of actually addressing that you delve into semantics to avoid getting your feelings hurt over your image of the Founding Fathers being a bunch of loony leftists (which they were).

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  100. The issue is race and multiculturalism, not democracy.

    You can't separate these things. The questions of multiculturalism is who gets to share in the benefits of civilization, and part of that is the question of who votes, and on what.

    The discussion was also about the Inner Nature of the U.S., not race and multiculturalism.

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  101. "And there really is no doubt about this because you and Sydney George Fisher (not Foster) say so?"

    No, because the idea of replacing a real functioning form of government with one that didn't exist in the world is an inherently left wing one. In 1776, representative democracy hadn't existed for thousands of years. The places where it did exist (various Greek city states) produced loads of very coherent philosophy describing why it cannot work in the long run. The most prominent example of a representative state (Rome) collapsed due to ethnic replacement.

    Inherent in democracy is the simple idea that more votes equals more power for the people who get their votes. There's an incentive built in to replace an intelligent, independent populous with one that is less intelligent and more dependent on the state as a patron.

    If the ruling class is a different ethnic group than the populous then there really is no counterbalancing force against the democratic incentive to replace better citizens with worse ones.

    "Do you realize how nutty that sounds? "Virtually represented" is like the "virtual wall" - the "virtual" negates the word which follows it."

    Virtually represented is about the best you can do ever. Direct representation will tend over time to make the state do things like pay its clients to reproduce (AFDC) and pay its potential opponents to become dependent on it by not reproducing (SS, Medicare). Changing the composition of the population works really well at allowing representatives to always actually represent, well, someone and still destroy a nation. At least virtual representation doesn't have that fig leaf. Members of the House of Commons were supposed to represent the interests of commoners - not simply those of the commoners of your district. Our government could do with significantly more representation of the nation and less concern with a single district. After all - if your district is populated 90% by Mexicans, your job is now to represent the interests of the invaders!

    "Al of you pining for the days of King George (and there are a remarkable number of you) should take a hard look at modern Britain. There but for the grace of the "left-wing" Founding Fathers are we."

    First, the left won there too. The queen is powerless. Exactly what I described above is occurring, minus the rapid pace of ethnic replacement. The worst of the British people are paid to breed and the best are discouraged. Maybe in a few more generations we'll see how bad a population can be degenerated under the influence of a democratic state.

    Secondly, we're not exactly far behind modern Britain! At least they're still 92% white (87% British). Thanks Founding Fathers!

    Daybreaker:

    "Before then, the technology didn't exist to allow an insular, intelligent, aggressive minority persistently to sway the democratic process. Till then, the safeguards devised in the print era for the print era were adequate."

    Considering how new the government type was when it was first implemented and how it took a mere 74 years to kill 625,000 people in warfare that was certainly goaded on by the print media I'm not sure that the safeguards built in were adequate. This, of course, doesn't deny that changing the ethnic composition of the ruling class didn't make matters immeasurably worse.

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  102. Although not exactly flattering to Americans, this music video says a little about how Russians see us.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEAY-VXiIvQ&feature=related

    TomI

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  103. So it's more likely that a handful of Jewish intellectuals in the early 20th century permanently rerouted the course of Western history in less than a generation to something fundamentally different than what it has been before?

    To anyone with a brain the idea that there was a completely radical shift that happened all at once and was totally unpredictable is what sounds ridiculous.


    It's not ridiculous at all. It's basic HBD. It's not any more ridiculous than the notion that a relative handful of the overall population i.e. blacks permanently rerouted the level of violence and crime in Western civilization in less than a generation. It's amazing how people who are HBD believers when it comes to things like crime and IQ suddenly drop any HBD reasoning when it comes to certain issues and resort to ridiculous, anti-empirical, Hegelian theories of some disembodied, mysterious, mystical "force" or "Idea" controlling everything and the course of history for hundreds, thousands of years.

    And how was it "unpredictable"? Great Western leaders, philosophers, intellectuals, etc. have made and published negative judgments and warnings regarding Jews throughout Western history.

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  104. So it's more likely that a handful of Jewish intellectuals in the early 20th century permanently rerouted the course of Western history in less than a generation to something fundamentally different than what it has been before?

    To anyone with a brain the idea that there was a completely radical shift that happened all at once and was totally unpredictable is what sounds ridiculous.


    This is just the usual "correlation doesn't imply causation" argument which is hypocritical: You can't offer any alternative hypotheses that aren't subject to precisely the same catch-all critique. It's pretty much assured that whenever the "correlation doesn't imply causation" catch-all is paraded forth in the context of social phenomenon, the real agenda is to suppress discussion for the simple reason the only way to escape from that critique is to run controlled experiments -- EXACTLY the thing that Jews will not allow under any circumstances due to the "fascistic" aspect of border controls.

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  105. the Founding Fathers being a bunch of loony leftists (which they were).

    You assume that which is supposed to be proven - namely, that the Founding Fathers were a bunch of "loony leftists". And your in case, that the English Whigs were likewise "loony leftists".

    you delve into semantics to avoid getting your feelings hurt

    Your concern for my feelings in touching, but it is you who is carefully avoiding the issues being raised. If you are going to construct a left-right axis with the divine right of kings at the extreme right and republicanism on the extreme left, then the slide towards the "loony left" began several centuries ago.

    It's at this point that the more intelligent commenters here, all three of them, exclaim "Wait a minute, there is no relationship between the sort of polices we care about on the one hand and monarchism on the other".

    Kingdoms have very frequently engaged in foreign interventions, and are intrinsically hostile to the notion of "peoples". The idea of the nation did not come into full flower until the idea of monarchy began to wane.

    It is one of the monarchy lovers here, gigi, who pines for the idea of an Austro-Hungarian King ruling over the Mexicans. The distance between gigi and Obama is a hell of a lot less than that between either and George Washington.

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  106. You're out of your element.

    The "element" is a blog comment section, you pompous jackass.


    Nobody pines for King George, maybe for Charles, but not George. England and the US suffer from the same disease, which was evident in England well before the American revolution.

    If you expand your attention just a little, you may notice that the "disease" in question has afflicted humanity as far back as we have historical knowledge, regardless of what system of government was employed.

    And once you embrace monarchy, you embrace the bad kings along with the good ones.

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  107. "So it's more likely that a handful of Jewish intellectuals in the early 20th century permanently rerouted the course of Western history in less than a generation to something fundamentally different than what it has been before?"

    One example. All over the western world children are taught race is a social construct and teachers and academics who challenge that risk losing their jobs. This didn't happen in the past. It's not a question of "likely." You can trace the steps of how this change occurred back to Boas and his disciples. The cultural marxists who were chased out of Germany in the 20s captured Colombia University in New York and their ideas spread out from there via various alumni operating as marxist missionaries.

    This is history not theory. The only question is were the people who did it Marxists who happened to be Jewish or Jewish ethnic activists disguising the ethnic nature of their activism by wrapping it in a Marxist shell.

    Imagine a football game where one side is playing as a team while the other side are playing as individuals. What they did isn't that difficult when you look at it that way. Large centre-left organisations get taken over by small far-left organisations all the time in this way. The Republicans were taken over by the neo-cons in less than twenty years in the same way. It's easy if only one side is playing as a team.

    The last question is if it's so easy why didn't it happen before? The answer is you can't take over institutions that don't exist. You can't take over teacher education, poison the minds of the teachers, and then let them go and poison the minds of their pupils in thousands of public schools without the structure being in place already. They needed cinema and television and a public education system and universities in every state etc to provide the mechanism by which the anti-white virus could be transmitted.


    "To anyone with a brain the idea that there was a completely radical shift that happened all at once and was totally unpredictable is what sounds ridiculous."

    It didn't happen all at once and was predicted. The majority didn't believe the predictions.

    White societies have a Logos, an over-arching set of principles which provide the foundation for the actual law. The Logos is decided by common assent - however that is derived or created.

    The Logos system provides the basis for large-scale group co-operation which gives White societies their strength. It also provides a means of destroying those societies from within if a hostile group has the means to do so.

    (In the past the Logos was decided by church and landed aristocracy which were difficult to take over completely by a hostile group - hence why some WNs are so keen on the time before the Enlightenment.)

    (However those societies didn't have universal public eduction or mass media so i don't think the comparison is valid.)

    So White societies have an organising principle which provided (and provides) a massive competitive advantage as long as the creation of the Logos is not hijacked and made self-destructive by a hostile minority. That hostile minority was always there and always seeking to subvert White societies in this way - through fear and paranoia rather than malice if you want to be charitable - but were blocked from doing so because the mechanism to do so didn't exist. As soon as White societies developed to the point where the mechanism existed - mass media and public education - it happened.

    White societies weren't prepared for it because it hadn't happened before and it hadn't happened before because it couldn't happen until mass media and universal public education were developed.

    Now it has happened and we adapt or die.

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  108. Them Jews had a fairly important partner.

    1928

    "The Foundation formally embarks on programs in the social sciences, with the consolidation of the activities of the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial into the Foundation. Directed by Beardsley Ruml, the memorial concentrated on increasing manpower and developing facilities for research “in a systematic investigation of concrete social problems.” A year later, the Foundation identifies three major social science fields for support: international relations, economic stabilization and public administration. Grants are for research, conferences and publications."

    http://www.rockefellerfoundation.org/who-we-are/our-history/1920-1929/

    "The Social Science Research Council, organized in 1923 to correlate and stimulate research in the social sciences, received extensive grants. It promoted communication between students of social issues and sponsored cooperative research that drew on different disciplines. The Memorial funded Social Science Abstracts, a publication produced under the guidance of the Social Science Research Council. Other agencies that received aid from the Memorial were the Brookings Institution, the Institute of Pacific Relations, and the National Bureau of Economic Research.

    The Memorial was interested in supporting the people working in the social sciences through fellowships. The Social Science Research Council administered the Memorial's fellowships in the United States. Outside the United States, the Memorial worked with the aid of national advisors, granting 239 fellowships to scholars from Austria, Australia, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, England, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden. Besides funding the fellowships, the Memorial appropriated funds for travel, conferences, and scientific journals, and to promote communications between specialists all over the world.

    A national program concentrating on the children's welfare and parent education grew from the Memorial's early interests in women and children. Among the institutions receiving major support was the Child Study Association of America, Teachers College of Columbia, and the State University of Iowa. The program included support for research on the growth and development of children, the training of people working in the field, the preparation of books, pamphlets, study outlines, and other aids to help the parents.

    The Memorial also took an interest in African-American history. Beginning in 1922, the Memorial assisted the Association for the Study of Negro Life and History in conducting studies of social and economic conditions among Blacks since the Civil War. The association maintained close connections with various Black colleges and universities and trained personnel for their social science faculties. In 1927, the Memorial supported an interracial conference at Yale University that considered the basic problems of race relations in the United States.

    On January 3, 1929, the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial was consolidated with the Rockefeller Foundation. The Memorial made a final grant of $10,000,000 to the Spelman Fund of New York. The Spelman Fund, an independently incorporated board, administered appropriations in child study, parent education, and interracial education. The Fund continued to support some agencies previously supported by the Memorial for the duration of the particular grant, but the Fund's main program was in public administration and intergovernmental relations. The Memorial had just begun to develop this area when it was consolidated with the Rockefeller Foundation."

    http://www.rockarch.org/collections/rockorgs/lsrmadd.php

    As important as Boas is, I think it is more reasonable to say that he and is like (in particular Mead and Sapir) were selected and funded because their ideals were useful to the ruling class rather than that they captured the ruling class.

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  109. "Them Jews had a fairly important partner."

    "As important as Boas is, I think it is more reasonable to say that he and is like (in particular Mead and Sapir) were selected and funded because their ideals were useful to the ruling class rather than that they captured the ruling class."

    As I mentioned earlier, this is just the usual "correlation doesn't imply causation" argument which is hypocritical, as you reveal here. Your hypothesis here is subject to the same critique. You can't offer ANY alternative hypotheses that aren't subject to precisely the same catch-all critique. Whenever the "correlation doesn't imply causation" catch-all argument is paraded forth in the context of social phenomenon, the real agenda is to suppress discussion for the simple reason the only way to escape from that critique and the endless sophistry and verbal warfare is to run EXPERIMENTS, EXACTLY the thing that Jews will not allow under any circumstances due to the "fascistic" aspect of border controls. So we're left endlessly verbally debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

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  110. Not in the way that you (and people like Ben Tillman) think, though. The sort of "hard determinism" being propounded at the time (and being propounded again today) is intrinsically distasteful.

    I don't know who or what you are, but I do know you have lied about who and what you are. The one thing you have consistently claimed is that you are not one of us.

    So be it.

    I have no idea what "hard determinism" is, but I do know that what you find tasteful is none of our concern.

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  111. Them Jews had a fairly important partner.

    You're begging the question.

    Very poor effort.

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  112. At the time of the American revolution, the American patriots argued that they could not be taxed without being represented in Parliament....

    In other words, the positions of the founding fathers were as radical as could possibly occur at the time.


    To the contrary, the argument against taxation without "representation" (i.e., taxation without consent) is one that went back more than 500 years in Germanic law. Read Otto von Gierke. It was the rule of the usurper George that was radical.

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  113. And the so-called Glorious Revolution? Akin to the Bolsheviks overthrowing the Czar!

    Bravo!

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  114. Inherent in democracy is the simple idea that more votes equals more power for the people who get their votes.

    Absolutely not. Inherent in democracy is the idea of consensus. Voting is completely ALIEN to democracy. Read Tullock & Buchanan.

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  115. What the hell are you saying? That the Rockefeller Foundation was NOT important in determining which schools of social science would dominate the field? Or that the Rockefeller foundation was just a Jewish tool? If this is your position you really aren't worth talking to.

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  116. ben tillman -

    "To the contrary, the argument against taxation without "representation" (i.e., taxation without consent) is one that went back more than 500 years in Germanic law. "

    The colonists also argued that they could not effectively be represented in Parliament because they'd be easily out voted.

    In other words, they espoused a principle that spelled the end of the British Empire but made an unprincipled exception (no Auster fan, but he does have his moments) for every other colony. Over time, of course, the unprincipled exceptions would be stripped away and the full radical project would take place.

    Now, maybe you've accepted that a colonial relationship is wrong (for whatever reason) but I'm sure you still recognize how radically leftist a position it was in the 18th century.

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  117. "Whether Russia is simply behind America—and will soon follow it into cultural decadence"
    I think Spencer has it backwards. It is America that lags what used to be a Soviet Union by about 50 years. Everything that is a hot topic politically this day - multiculturalism, ethnic diversity, anti-Christianity of the elites, unified education standard controlled by Federal government, federally-managed health system, etc - all this was implemented in the USSR in 20ies and 30ies with necessary adjustments of cultural attitudes for recalcitrant Russians. Americans are just getting the same medicine delivered intravenously that Russians got through the back of the head.

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  118. I don't know who or what you are, but I do know you have lied about who and what you are.

    Excuse me?

    If you're referring to my once describing myself as a "London Paki" some four years ago, just to test what sort of reception one would get a racial blog, which lasted all of, oh, two posts (you should know; you were on that thread) I'd hardly call that "lying about myself."


    I have no idea what "hard determinism" is, but I do know that what you find tasteful is none of our concern.

    It should be. Then you wouldn't sound as ridiculous (and, in your case, solemnly pompous) as you so often do.

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  119. they espoused a principle that spelled the end of the British Empire but made an unprincipled exception (no Auster fan, but he does have his moments) for every other colony.

    It's true that they espoused a principle that spelled the end of the British Empire (why are we supposed to think that this is a bad thing?) but wrong to claim that they made any exception, principled or unprincipled, for "every other colony".

    Let's go along for the moment with your claim that "empire=right-wing, republic=left-wing". Please demonstrate using reason and factual examples why you consider an empire to be superior to a republic.

    For instance, you presumably think that Rome was greatly improved when the republic died and the emperors took control. (The Founders thought differently, of course) Why do you think that?

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  120. Wandrin,


    Diversity Kills. This simple empirical truth is being suppressed by the media all over the western world. There have already been millions of casualties and one way or another there will be tens of millions more before it's over.


    "Diversity" is the condition of the world, the condition in which humankind exists. Saying "diversity kills," then, is tantamount to suggesting humans should kill each other for their differences.

    I know that's not what you want to say (at least I hope not!) but it is what a lot of people are going to hear.

    But let's consider "diversity kills" in the way you intend it to be understood. "Diversity kills." Well now, so does homogeneity -- specifically, the drive to achieve it.

    Not only is diversity is a condition of the world, so is human migration. Human history is in large part the history of human migrations. It's just the way we are.* So "Homogeneity" is always going to have a problem with somebody because people are always moving about. Even if it's over relatively small differences (differences are never small in the minds of homogenizers, though), homogenizers are always going to be on someone's case.

    The 20th century was witness to millions upon millions of lives ruined in the relentless effort to homogenize. That right there is the biggest reason the diversity drive was launched in the first place. Multiculturalists decided that, look, we've had enough killing and hating over difference; we all share this globe and, one way or another, we're going to learn to do it peacefully.

    Now, as far as our conversation is concerned (whether you want to admit it or not, our goals overlap), the point is huge numbers of people would agree that despite the problems that it's increasingly obvious can be traced to (let's call it) "intimate diversity," the attempt to teach us to overcome our differences and like, or at least respect, each other was worth it. When you come out swinging the way you do (diversity kills; it's all a plot to destroy the white man), well, imo, that only confirms the correctness of what I just said.

    Understand, I'm not at all saying we shouldn't homogenize. I'm saying that we need a better way to go about it, one that takes into account the other side's needs, rights and feelings; in fewer words, I'd call it the cooperative model. Of course, it's a cinch to deride this as hopelessly utopian, and to write me off as some liberal naif who doesn't get that the world is a dangerous place. Well, truth be told, it will in all likelihood fall short of its ideals. But it will at least set a sensible moral baseline for people to rebound to when they again come to their senses. After all, no matter the brutality of the conflict, the dust always eventually settles. And when it does, people seek interpretative frameworks to both make sense of what just happened and how best to proceed. In this sense, just what is horrible about the one I am proposing?

    *Bob's Mantra asks the wrong question. It's not why should only white countries be forced to accept immigrants; it's why should only white countries be exempt. Of course, the mantra's a propaganda tool, and, I must admit, a pretty good one. But let's not pretend Bob Whittaker cares about its lack of factual correctness.

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  121. You can't offer ANY alternative hypotheses that aren't subject to precisely the same catch-all critique.

    You think you've stumbled upon some kind of point, but you haven't. The alternate hypothesis you seek is the subject of the blog post. That the 'Inner Nature of the US' is one of leftist evangelism.

    So, a bunch of well-funded radical Jews were able to what? Force feed beliefs completey contrary to the WASPy professors of American colleges?

    Why wasn't there a mass revolt among public school teachers over this radically alternate version of history, and completely alien ethical framework spewing forth from Columbia U?

    What you have is a conspiracy theory. It's a theory that doesn't account for the fact that none of these jew lackwits had an original idea. Everything they said, published and pushed predates their birth, much less their prominence. Some of those ideas, like a Tabula Rasa conception of mankind, no inherent, inborn racial qualities, pre-date these jews by literally thousands of years.

    It doesn't account for literature leading up to the English Civil War about institutional racism keeping the Anglo-Saxon man down. Damn if a lot of it doesn't sound really fucking familiar, even if it is six centuries old.

    It doesn't account for groups like the Quakers pushing for breeding the white race out of existence (while exempting themselves from being the first man to offer up his daughter to the nearest negro). It doesn't account for white spaniard colonists in Mexico having essentially the same idea a continent away. All of this seemingly sans jews.

    I'm not saying jews aren't perniciously influential in the modern day, and throughout the 20th century. I'm saying they didn't hijack anything in America. All of those Anglo professors, school teachers, beaurocrats were completely ready to eat Boas et al up. They wanted it, they were ready for it. The message was completely in tune with their belief system, and with American culture. Boas did what Marx did. He gave a scientific veneer to bullshit mystical beliefs so that polite society could profess belief in nonsense they knew wasn't true.

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  122. The question here is if America was a Jacobin nation from the beginning, or only after the hostile elite take over.

    Given that the Jacobins were the first to introduce universal suffrage, and that they even made the ex-slaves in Haiti equal to their soon-to-be-massacred white countrymen, I consider this a valid test of Jacobinism

    Josh quoted Bolivar himself complaining by what can only be described as Jacobinism of the American ambassador in Colombia in the 1820s. I cited the American role in overthrowing the Austrian prince the French had enthroned in Mexico, leading to the first Indian ruler since the Aztecs. And people wonder why white Mexicans hate America so much...The diference between 1820 and 1867? In the latte America was much stronger and able to intervene, what she couldn't in 1820.

    Also, America's naturalization law of 1790 opened the way for berbers, Albanians and Bosnians to immigrate. There is no chance any of those could have moved with his family to France pre-1789 and get the same status of native born Frenchmen.

    If not from the beginning, America was certainly Jacobin much earlier than most here accept.Obviously, just like the French during the Terror, the historical American people is the greatest victim of its Jacobin rulers

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  123. You think you've stumbled upon some kind of point, but you haven't. The alternate hypothesis you seek is the subject of the blog post.

    You didn't understand my point.

    When I said "You can't offer ANY alternative hypotheses that aren't subject to precisely the same catch-all critique" I didn't mean that you or anyone else or a computer couldn't generate or hadn't generated alternative hypotheses. I meant that you or anyone else or a computer can't offer ANY alternative hypotheses that aren't subject to the same catch-all critique you level against arguments suggesting Jewish influence.

    Your argument against Jewish influence basically boils down to "correlation doesn't imply causation." It's hypocritical. Any alternative hypothesis you offer is subject to exactly the same catch-all critique.

    The only way to escape from this catch-all critique and the endless sophistry and verbal warfare (like smearing my view as "conspiracy theory") is to run EXPERIMENTS. Whenever this catch-all critique is brought up in the context of social phenomenon, the real agenda is to suppress discussion for the simple reason the only way to escape it is to run experiments, exactly the thing that Jews will not allow under any circumstances due to the "racist", "anti-Semitic", "fascist" etc. aspect of border controls.

    And even if WASPs were and are susceptible to negative influence and ideas, that isn't mutually exclusive with the notion of Jewish influence. Similar to how the American Indians had lesser immunity to infectious disease but the infectious diseases were brought over by people from the Old World. This is why separation is important.

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  124. gig said..."Also, America's naturalization law of 1790 opened the way for berbers, Albanians and Bosnians to immigrate. There is no chance any of those could have moved with his family to France pre-1789 and get the same status of native born Frenchmen."

    Give me an f**king break. How many berbers, Albanians and Bosnians emigrated to British NA/USA over the past 350 years? The definition of white circa 2011 is not what the definition of white was in 1790. I highly doubt the Founders would have welcomed berbers. Additionally, there was no chain migration back then, so even if an odd ball berber got through, it did not mean his whole family was coming. Besides, history shows that none of the groups you mentioned ever came in any significant numbers at all. Succeeding immigration laws until 1965 worked also to keep them out. Heck even true Europeans, of the Southern and Eastern variety, had a hard time getting in. The authors of the 1965 Immigration Act, not the 1790 Naturalization Act, are the true villains in this tale.

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  125. Since nobody has mentioned it, it is worth noting that the alien and sedition acts were passed because the *actual* Jacobins were recruiting Democratic-
    Republicans into the world wide revolution. In fact, the before it was a party D-R clubs were first established by Citizen Ganet. Many Jeffersonians considered American and French republicanism to be engaged in the same struggle to create an "empire of liberty".

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  126. "Why wasn't there a mass revolt among public school teachers over this radically alternate version of history, and completely alien ethical framework spewing forth from Columbia U?"

    Because it was accompanied by feminism, such that smart young women suddenly had the option of becoming doctors instead of schoolteachers, which meant that the average IQ of ed school students precipitously dropped.
    So the Cultural Marxist professors had no difficulty instilling their hooey into the corps of (mostly dullards) rookie teachers.
    As soon as that corps of new teachers was in place, the brainwashing of children commenced in earnest.
    Old teachers who howled were sneered at as foolish old bats, shushed and laughed at because they weren't "with it."

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  127. I'm saying [Jews]didn't hijack anything in America.

    Right, look at National Review where W.F. Buckley had no problem with the blacklisting of guys like Steve Sailer, Peter Brimelow, John O'Sullivan, and Joseph Sobran.

    Why bring up the Jews at all?

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  128. Severn-

    Please demonstrate using reason and factual examples why you consider an empire to be superior to a republic.

    How about a list:

    Egypt 1911 vs 2011
    Rhodesia vs Zimbabwe
    Haiti pre independence vs Haiti 2011
    Kenya as a colony vs Kenya today
    Algeria in 1911 vs 2011

    The confusion only arises because today basically all countries that have a citizenry capable of supporting civilization are republics (China being the most prominent example). That there are nations that were capable of civilization as long as they had a more traditional and non-democratic government and degenerated into chaos and anarchy with a more democratic state is very good evidence that democracy is negative force.

    On the theoretical level, democracy only has 3 ultimate end states, all of them bad.

    1) Bolshevism - the intellectual class manages to ally with a sufficiently large underclass and rules the nation. It expropriates and sometimes murders the middle class.
    2) Fascism - the middle class wins the struggle and runs a state in their interests. This might entail the murder of ethnic groups hostile to the majority.
    3) The modern progressive state - the intellectual class makes voting meaningless by controlling the means of thought transmission. Over a generation, any idea can be extinguished since there are no institutions dedicated to teaching the next generation those ideas. People simply go along with whatever the intellectual / managerial class comes up with. Elections exist but are meaningless (for example, what happened to prop 187?).

    Empires, on the other hand, are run for the monetary benefit of the owner of the territory. You'd never import Mexicans into American territory if you were the emperor of the United States - it decreases the value of your property (for example, how much would you pay to own the right to run the government of a California with the demographics of 1960 versus one with the demographics of 2011?). On the other hand, a democratic state will import loads of Mexicans because the class of people who own and operate the government of California benefit from having a state with a dysfunctional population.

    On top of all that, the progressive state is vulnerable to takeover from a hostile minority if that hostile minority is capable of gaining control of the institutions of indoctrination. A small cohesive group dedicated to the extermination of the majority of a nation can do a huge amount of damage if they control the state apparatus (this includes universities, the press, and schools) of a democratic state.

    For instance, you presumably think that Rome was greatly improved when the republic died and the emperors took control. (The Founders thought differently, of course) Why do you think that?

    Augustus was a (far, far) better ruler than a divided senate. He had better incentives. Of course, imperial Rome had a huge problem in that royal succession was not done by a well known rule that would be followed by the military. This alone caused the same problems that democracy suffers from on smaller scale - bribes to the praetorian guard being the means of "election" rather than payments of coin to the masses.

    Let's turn the question around: using reason and examples why is a democratic form of government better than an imperial one or a monarchy? In showing examples, please name places that went from one to the other and had an increase in the quality of government.

    Just to help you out here's a few places you can pick:

    Revolutionary France
    Bolshevik Russia
    etc.

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  129. And people wonder why white Mexicans hate America so much...

    I get the impression that when you say "white Mexicans", what you mean is "I".

    People wonder why you hate America so much.


    Given that the Jacobins were the first to introduce universal suffrage ..

    Is suffrage universal if it excludes women? The Levellers in Britain were fighting for universal male suffrage a century before the Jacobins did.

    .. I consider this a valid test of Jacobinism

    That's a bit like saying that as the Nazis favored government run unions, the test of Nazism to look for government run unions.

    The striking feature of Jacobinism (and Nazism) was the extreme degree of military aggression which each embodied. In order for claims of built-in American Jacobinism to carry any weight, America would need to have a history, right from its founding, of invading countries without a republican form of government and establishing republics.

    It has no such history.

    I've pointed this out before on this thread but you appear to be impervious to facts and reason.

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  130. On the theoretical level, democracy only has 3 ultimate end states, all of them bad.

    1) Bolshevism
    2) Fascism -
    3) The modern progressive state -


    None of those are the "ultimate end states" of democracy. None of those are democracy at all.

    You'd never import Mexicans into American territory if you were the emperor of the United States

    Of course you would, for the exact same reasons the Roman Emperors imported barbarians into the Roman Empire. Divide and conquer is the first instinct of all totalitarian rulers, whether they call themselves kings, emperors, or dictators.

    it decreases the value of your property

    You are under the quaint impression that an emperor is a really big capitalist, sort of like Bill Gates in a purple robe, when what he is actually after is power.


    a democratic state will import loads of Mexicans because the class of people who own and operate the government of California benefit from having a state with a dysfunctional population.

    If you were smart enough to be able to understand your own words, you'd notice that what you just described is not a democratic state. It's an oligarchy.


    using reason and examples why is a democratic form of government better than an imperial one or a monarchy? In showing examples, please name places that went from one to the other and had an increase in the quality of government.

    The United States of America. It went from monarchy to a republic, and gained a (far, far) better government in the process.

    Other examples - Germany, France, Japan, South Korea, China, and Asian countries in general.

    A republic is a better form of government because (a) it does not have hereditary rulers, whose incompetence is not easily remedied, and (b) because it allows all of its members to have a say in how their own lives will be run.

    You have made it clear that you are eager to subordinate your own political will to others. I'll make you a generous offer: I'll be your "king". I'll tell you what to do, and you agree to do it. Fair enough?

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  131. Egypt 1911 vs 2011
    Rhodesia vs Zimbabwe
    Haiti pre independence vs Haiti 2011
    Kenya as a colony vs Kenya today
    Algeria in 1911 vs 2011



    Egypt 2011, Zimbabwe, and the rest all have the sort of "traditional and non-democratic government" which you approve so highly of. A military dictatorship is traditional, right? And it is certainly non-democratic.

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  132. Empires, on the other hand, are run for the monetary benefit of the owner of the territory.

    The incentive for the owner of the territory is to maintain his position and status relative to the populace. This means capturing most of the rent created by the economic activity of the populace. An extremely creative inventor or entrepreneur on the territory who creates valuable assets threatens the relative position of the owner of the territory unless the owner captures most of the rent and thus value of the valuable assets created by the inventor. The owner has little incentive to create since he's a rentier whose status and position is secure, and the populace has little incentive since the value of creative output will be captured by the owner. You end up with a situation where the ABSOLUTE level of assets remains stagnant or decreases while the relative concentration of assets in the hands of the owner magnifies. This is basically the road to mass slave societies.

    You'd never import Mexicans into American territory if you were the emperor of the United States - it decreases the value of your property

    You certainly would if you could extract more rent by bringing in Mexicans to replace Americans, if it secured your status and position more firmly or even raised it, if the presence of Americans was a greater current or potential threat to your status and position for you or your descendants, etc.

    It wouldn't necessarily decrease the value of your property. The value of your land holdings could go up by the greater population, and the Mexican replacement of Americans could help you concentrate even more assets. Now it could decrease the value of your property in the ABSOLUTE sense, that is by keeping a more intelligent and capable population of Americans on your territory they would create much more valuable stuff which you would collect and own in the future than what the Mexicans would create. Even owning a small share of the future output of Americans could be much more valuable than owning much or all of the future Mexican output. But the primary incentive is going to be RELATIVE status and position.

    (for example, how much would you pay to own the right to run the government of a California with the demographics of 1960 versus one with the demographics of 2011?)

    Why would owning a smaller California government from the 60s be necessarily more valuable than the one today? The one today provides greater rent streams and allows you access to more concentrated wealth. And concentrated wealth today translates to much more sexual status and access today. Harem building is much easier today. Greater sexual access to young women, many of whom would've been married homemakers in 1960, is available today.

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  133. You have made it clear that you are eager to subordinate your own political will to others. I'll make you a generous offer: I'll be your "king". I'll tell you what to do, and you agree to do it. Fair enough?

    Why don't you run for office then? Guess what? Everyone is ruled by a government. In contrast to monarchy a republic just produces a government that is low quality at best and outright murderous at worst. Under a king governments build things like Versailles. Under a republic governments build things like Cabrini Green.

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  134. @Silver
    ""Diversity" is the condition of the world"

    No it isn't. Homogenous tribes on their own piece of ground is the natural condition of the world.


    "is tantamount to suggesting humans should kill each other for their differences."

    Not should, do. They do it already hence the 30,000 black/white rapes in the US. Diversity Kills. As does promoting diversity. As does using media control to cover up the consequences of diversity.


    "Well now, so does homogeneity -- specifically, the drive to achieve it."

    A drive to achieve homogeneity is another way of saying diversity kills. It's the beginning state that kills not the end state.


    "The 20th century was witness to millions upon millions of lives ruined in the relentless effort to homogenize."

    And the 21st will be even worse because of the relentless drive to diversify which will inevitably break down into ethno-sectarian civil war and a relentless drive to homogenize again.


    "That right there is the biggest reason the diversity drive was launched in the first place."

    Jews want the positive economic advantages of being a cohesive mercantile minority among a less cohesive majority without the negative consequences.


    "Multiculturalists decided that, look, we've had enough killing and hating over difference"

    No, multicultists created a situation where lots of (poor) people went from having relatively safe homogenous neighborhoods to having highly dangerous diverse neighborhoods full of killing and hating over difference which eventually led to them being ethnically cleansed.


    "our goals overlap"

    Not in a million years.


    "the point is huge numbers of people would agree...the attempt to teach us to overcome our differences and like, or at least respect, each other was worth it"

    It's a slow genocide kept hidden by media censorship of the truth.


    "to write me off as some liberal naif"

    You are joking?

    "one that takes into account the other side's needs, rights and feelings"

    The other side are genocidal anti-white racists with absolutely no sense of shame as you well know.