This photo appeared on the front page of today's Wall Street Journal, captioned:
Children are baptized during a mass baptism ceremony in the town of Mtskheta outside Tbilisi, July 13, 2010. About 700 children were baptized by the Georgian Orthodox church during the 12th mass baptism ceremony led by Patriarch Ilia II.Over a year ago I posted on how the Patriarch of Georgia singlehandedly raised the birthrate by 20%, with his promise to personally baptize any baby born to parents of more than two children. The Georgian Orthodox Church called the results "a miracle". Looks like the miracle is rolling along.
You want good news, here it is.
I have a question for any reader who may be a member of the Orthodox church. Namely is the Orthodox church worth joining? I was raised as a Catholic but fell out of belief in my teenage years. Over the last 15 years I have tried being an agnostic (mostly), an atheist, an nihlist, and a scientific materialist. I have found all of them unfulfulling and would like to become a practicing Christian again. However most of the options available aren't very palatable to say the least. I have considered rejoining the Catholic church and am drawn to its tradition. However I find it impossible to stomach the marxist/social justice propaganda that the church has become infected with. Also the church as a whole seems spiritually dead. The mainline protestant churches seem even worse with regards to liberalism. I haven't looked into the fundamentalist churches much because I assumed they'd be infected with G.W.Bush-Israel loving snake handlers, but maybe I'm being unfair. The Orthodox church seems alluring because it has tradition and a long history, but I'm curious if its fallen prey to all the negative influences that other churches have succombed to.
ReplyDeleteOT
ReplyDeleteImprove your life:
CNN: Adopt a Haitian!
OK, so maybe their hearts are in the right place. But I found the first three comments (upon my viewing) amusing:
BossMan114: Just what we need is another foreign born child. Aren't there plenty of foster kids here in America to adopt? Oh but wait, it's so "cool" to adopt a child from Haiti because they had an earthquake. Why don't we all go down to Haiti and hand out bottle of water like Clinton did?
Kubla: Can't CNN find any news to report? This crap is really getting old!
MinnesotaWP What is CNN's love affair with adopting children from Haiti. It's like these people that adopt the children from Haiti want to be worshiped for their genorosity? I think i'm going to adopt a White American child who really needs a parent.
Perhaps some indication of why CNN's ratings are in the tank.
The birthrate doesn't matter unless natives are being displaced by a hostile foreign group.
ReplyDeleteIs that a problem in Georgia?
"The birthrate doesn't matter unless natives are being displaced by a hostile foreign group.
ReplyDeleteIs that a problem in Georgia?"
OneSTDV, you're projecting Euro-American norms on a very paranoid region of the world.
They've got nasty Russians to the north. All kinds of Muslims to the south. Armenians probably can't be trusted either. Better to have as many warm breathing bodies as possible.
This reminds me of my years in Singapore (which is not the paradise most Americans seem to think it is). For a while the government apparently pushed family planning, but only the Chinese seemed to be listening - the Malaysian and Indian birthrates just kept increasing. So the government switched gears, and began to saturate the public spaces with advertisements for having a third child, and every ad/poster showed a Chinese family. Whatever else I may have disliked about that place (long list), they were secure in their identity as majority Han Chinese and were determined to remain that way.
ReplyDelete@MattG
ReplyDeleteYou might be interested in this post by Rod Dreher who writes about his switch to Orthodoxy from Catholicism.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2006/10/orthodoxy-and-me.html
What great religious leadership, and what a happy, positive story! This is the best news I've heard all week.
ReplyDelete- Daybreaker
In America, the churches are busy supporting the Mexican reconquista. It's nice to see that there are still Christian churches that actually care about the demography of their country.
ReplyDeleteMatt G,
ReplyDeleteYou would do best to ignore Dreher. He left Catholicism over his shock that it was a human organization, and I fear he may one day leave Orthodoxy in a similar tuffle, though I can't imagine where he would go. As a journalist, sometimes I like him, but as a writer on spiritual things… maybe not so much.
As an Orthodox Christian, let me say first of all that our martyrdom at the hands of the Marxists has left us no fan of the "liberation theologies" of the Catholics, or really much of the Hegel, Heidegger and Marx infused theology of the West. You will find some Orthodox theologians who converse with Heidegger, but politically, Orthodoxy tends to conform to the norms of where it lies, or is monarchist.
As far as immigration, while Orthodox are certainly willing and happy to help Orthodox immigrants, outside of a few instances, there is not much organized effort to increase their immigration, and never from the Church itself, like how the RCC fully embraces the idea of a future Hispanic majority in much of the American Southwest and Florida.
However, you should not convert to Orthodoxy because it doesn't offend you politically. I think that would be an error similar to Dreher's, but far more serious. While I wish that atheistic and agnostic reactionaries would just admit that all their hopes and dreams can only be realized in a Christian culture, I do not wish for them to convert to Christianity on that basis. You have to love the Church because you are seeking Truth, first.
"Whatever else I may have disliked about that place (long list)..."
ReplyDeleteSheila, can you be more specific? I'm curious.
The Catholic Church made me depressed for years. It totally isolated me. I resent them fully. The obsession with birth control is stupid since nobody even cares about. I could have had a much better life had I not been raised Catholic,even Baptist would have been better.
ReplyDeleteMatt G:
ReplyDeleteThe faith of the Orthodox Church is wonderful medicine for the soul, and yet it is not apprehended in inconsequential dosages. Yet as anyone can tell you, lovers do not look at their watches. Read Peter France's "A Place of Healing for the Soul: Patmos" for the story of an atheist newsman's own journey. Then "Come and See".
The Orthodox Church claims to be authentic, original, historical, and authoritative Christianity. Throughout its history, it has resisted changing itself. A service feels like stepping back in time several centuries. It's church for grownups. It has a very strong monastic tradition, so there is an emphasis on fasting, long scripted prayers, and church is supposed to be work, not entertainment. People will stand for much of the service. Except for homilies, the service is scripted, and parishioners often cross themselves, and bow and even prostrate. Many of the words are intoned. It all feels very ancient--Jewish and Middle Eastern.
ReplyDeleteIts theological tradition is simpler than the West's. It embraces mystery and feels less need to put everything on a philosophical foundation. It is ancient, so the modern mind might view some beliefs as old-fashioned or superstitious. There seems to be more unity of belief (among the leadership, I mean), less tolerance of theological innovation. If a priest pushes heretical teachings, he's gone.
Many parishes in America are mostly converts (e.g., Episcopalians who are disgusted with all the paganism in their church) who tend to be quite committed. Cradle Orthodox might be more casual; for example, it seems like some Greeks are as interested in the the cultural connection as the religion.
Overall, it's a great church for a traditionalist, and it makes a strong claim to having the closest resemblance to early Christianity.
@anonymous 6:11 P.M.
ReplyDeleteThank you for directing me to the article.
@Plethon
I definitely agree with you about Dreher. I have read him before and found him to be a bit flaky. All human institutions are deeply flawed including churches. The sex-abuse scandal didn't bother me too much. Sure it was a horrible thing, but like all horrible things it was eventually exposed and the church has paid a price for it like it should have. The Orthodox aversion to marxism makes perfect sense given the recent history of eastern europe. I would like any church I join to be non-political and I don't expect it to conform to all of my personal beliefs. The Catholic church is just too much. I like how they take strong stands against abortion and gay marriage, but I can't in good conscience join an organization that supports my race replacement with its open borders cheer-leading. I like the fact that the Orthodox church is low key and seems to fly under the radar screen.
@James and Ron
Thank you both for your insights and for the book recommendations. A traditional theologically straight-forward approach without all the new age feel good crap definitely appeals to me.
Ron,
ReplyDeleteHolding that the theological tradition is simpler than the West's is just feel-good pablum. In fact, many scholars agree that the whole reason for the Great Schism may well have been the greater sophistication of Eastern theology and a Western inability to comprehend it. (That is unfair overall, I think, but correct in the specifics of the filioque controversy.) St. Gregory Palamas is far more subtle than Thomas Aquinas, though not as brilliant of a discursive intellect.
And if you go back to the fathers still most admired by the Orthodox—Basil, Gregory the Theologian, John Chrysostom, Maximus the Confessor and Symeon the New Theologian—there is nothing there to suggest a "simpler" theological tradition. In fact, they suggest just the opposite. (Maximus in particular is very intellectually demanding.)
Your discussion of convert parishes is also largely incorrect. Anglicans make up a large portion of vocal converts (because traditional Anglicans tend to be loud in the first place), but you'll find a mix in convert parishes much closer to the American norm: Evangelicals, Pentecostals, even many Catholics. Your discussion of "cradle" Orthodox is sadly often correct in the case of the Greeks, but Slavs (especially recent immigrants) usually display a higher degree of devotion and formality than converts.
Plethon,
ReplyDeleteI'll defer to you on your points; my comment is based on impressions. I'm no expert. Let me add that Orthodox Christians also claim St. Augustine who is no slouch.
Matt G, I'm baptized Christian Orthodox, even if I'm an atheist right now. I won't really go over why I'm not a believer, but I do believe that out of the Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians, the latter are the only sane ones. I'd probably rank them like this Orthodox > Catholic > Protestant. The truth of the matter is that the least influenced by the Enlightenment Christianity is, the better a religion it is. What you do need to know though is that Orthodox Christianity has quite a bunch of ascetic stuff to it. I used to fast on each Wednesday and Friday and go to church a couple of days a week. Still, if I had to choose in between the three branches, I'd choose Orthodox Christianity hands down. There's no social justice or Marxism in Romanian Orthodox Christianity, at least. Heck, even help thy neighbour here is help the one close to you(your own). I don't know, since I was a fairly good Christian girl, I could answer questions if you have any. But again, Romanian Orthodox Christianity is different than Serbian one so it's probably different than what you have in the states. But if you live in a big city that has Romanian immigrants, you have Orthodox Churches too so you can go and see what's up. But find one with a Romanian priest, if you want the real deal. But if you take it really seriously, expect to fast about half an year(we have fasts before the big holidays and some are quite long - but the strictness differs). So it's not something that is for everybody.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is better to be a 'bad' (trying-but-failing) member of a tough Christian denomination like Eastern Orthodoxy which is that you respect and believe to be true - but due to weakness cannot live-up-to; than it is to choose an easy religious denomination which you do not respect and do not believe is correct, but whose simple requirements you can confidently fulfill.
ReplyDeleteIt is close-to the essence of the Christian message that humans simply cannot live well - we cannot live by 'The Law' - but by the Incarnation we are offered forgiveness on the basis of repentance.
Trying and failing, admitting we have failed and asking forgiveness, but still keeping on trying - that is (for all but the saints) what life is all about for a Christian.
RV,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your insights. The more I hear about Orthodox Christianity the more it appeals to me. The ascetic aspects sound interesting and a welcome respite from enlightenment values which have taken over just about everything else. It's a good sign that even though your an atheist now you still speak well of the church. Many former catholics I come across in the U.S. are angry and bitter about their former faith. The fasting doesn't bother me in fact it tells me that it's a serious church that would probably scare off most soft decadent Americans. Are there really that many significant differences between each of the Orthodox branches? Here in the U.S. the Greek Orthodox church is the most visible and numerous. In a Romanian church would an outsider be accepted? I'm a white american and have no ethnic connections to any of the possible churches. Thanks in advance for any further input you can provide.
@bgc
I agree with you entirely.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "Namely is the Orthodox church worth joining?"
It's mainly a matter of whether you find it to be true, as the posters above noted.
If you want a therapeutic religion or a tribal identity religion, then you can find such in the Orthodox Church (millennially tested methods for self-improvement of a sort, a sense of belonging to the Jesus family), but that is not the heart of Orthodoxy -- you would choose it for something that is merely a consequence external to its essence. In its essence, Orthodoxy is about God as the end of all things and about realizing how every lower good reflects God and relates to God. I would say that any decent religion would be theocentric, but, then again, I'm Orthodox.
Here are some basics . . . Orthodox theology: God is a trinity of persons that "exists" as the foundation of existence. Orthodox metaphysics: God is beyond being and the source of all that is. Orthodox economics / cosmogony: God creates and orders through love, instantiating the perfection of the divine life in the world, which, as other than God, is necessarily imperfect. Orthodox anthropology: man is the worshiping animal. Orthodox ethics: do the Good, which is the same as following God's law, which is the same as manifesting the divine energy in one's person. Orthodox aesthetics: God is beautiful and the world, as God's image, reflects the divine splendor. Of course, you can find all of this in Rome, but it's harder to find. A secular crusty scale grows on the Roman church , like an alien parasite that seeks to turn the gospel into what Dostoyevsky's character called a counterfeit Christ.
Peace.
Matt, I don't see why you shouldn't be accepted. I mean, in my country you could go to church as a non-Romanian without a problem. The issue you would find though is that everything would probably be in Romanian and you don't know the language. Also, you must know certain parts by heart, for example, we sing things on Easter and you must know the words. But as Joseph says, you would choose this religion based on the consequences it has, not for itself and its message.
ReplyDeleteAnd hey, even if I don't believe in God, I don't really mind religions that had positive results. I mind Christianity overall, but the Orthodox branch is a good part of it. And being part of a religion is part of a group's identity.
Matt, I will give you another example. For example, Easter. Before Easter, in Orthodox Christianity you fast for 40 days, which means besides the physical parts of it, asking for forgiveness from those who you did wrong and whatnot. Then you confess(and the priest tells you how to make amends towards God for your sins) and do the communion. Then on Thursday, there is a service and you walk around the church and on Friday there is another one in which you kneel in front of a table on which there's a Bible and other symbols related to Easter and you walk beneath it and then on Saturday there's no service until late evening. On the Easter service there are some songs that are sung and then you get your candle lit with sacred light after which the service continues until the morning. Then you go home with the sacred light. Each of these things has a symbolism to it and they can have some local twists depending on the type of Orthodox Christianity. So Orthodox Christianity is far more complex and asks for a lot more dedication than the other denominations.
ReplyDeleteRV, thank you for your insights.
ReplyDelete