It is cause for celebration that no one much cares about the nominee’s religion. We are fortunate to have left behind the days when there was a so-called “Catholic seat” on the court, or when prominent Jews (including the publisher of this newspaper) urged President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1939 not to nominate Felix Frankfurter because they worried that having “too many” Jews on the court might fuel anti-Semitism.You can bet that if every Supreme Court justice was some type of Christian, many people would care very much about the nominee's religion. But Feldman's thesis, namely that WASPs have been true to their values of meritocracy and inclusion, and thus paved the way for the current situation, while of some small merit, conceals the larger reality.
But satisfaction with our national progress should not make us forget its authors: the very Protestant elite that founded and long dominated our nation’s institutions of higher education and government, including the Supreme Court. Unlike almost every other dominant ethnic, racial or religious group in world history, white Protestants have ceded their socioeconomic power by hewing voluntarily to the values of merit and inclusion, values now shared broadly by Americans of different backgrounds. The decline of the Protestant elite is actually its greatest triumph.
No one much cares about the nominee's religion because no one among the elite much cares about religion. On the other hand, the Protestant elite has either ceased to care or been made to feel guilt about its ethnicity, for which "Protestant" is shorthand, while Jews have very much not ceased to care, and do not feel guilt. White guilt arises from feeling ethnic solidarity; Jewish guilt arises from not feeling enough ethnic solidarity. That's why this "decline" is a "triumph" - for some people. I doubt that Feldman and those like him are very much concerned with their relations with God; for them, "religion" means their people.
From modest, quotidian institutions like Prospect Park, to the highest and most significant like the Supreme Court, white Christians, especially the founding stock of Protestants, are being displaced. The ruling class, as exemplified in this case by Feldman, are at some pains to reassure those of us being displaced that it's for our own good, and to reassure themselves of their noble motives, a sort of window-dressing for the soul.
Feldman praise for WASPs consists essentially in their willingness to step aside. He must be snickering to himself, for in this willingness they have been foolish. It's time that they - we - realize how foolish we've been, and time to understand that arguments like Feldman's are just special pleading disguised as objective analysis.
Let me just add, for those of you who believe I've been harping on this topic too much lately, what exactly is one supposed to make of a Jewish member of one of the nation's elite institutions telling white Christians, in the pages of the New York Times, that their ever decreasing voice in running the country and the ever increasing voice of his co-ethnics is for everyone's good? If the shoe was on the other foot, one rather doubts he'd be so sanguine.
Yes, except that secular Jews in America will be gone in a generation or two. They are either failing to reproduce or marrying outside their religion. The only Jews left will be the ultra-religious.
ReplyDeleteI think the America of ~2150 will look a lot like Brazil. Hugely stratified and run by the tens of millions of whites who still live in the country.
Oh, and a lot of Amish and Mormons.
Just for the record, there are already 61 responses to Noah’s article at Occidental Dissent. Of all that I’ll only quote some of Hunter Wallace’s words in the main article
ReplyDelete“It would be false and misleading to label them hypocrites. That is too kind of a description. Jews never believed in ‘diversity’ in the first place. All their rhetoric about tolerance, diversity, equality, colorblindness and the like was nothing more than a language game.”
"Yes, except that secular Jews in America will be gone in a generation or two. They are either failing to reproduce or marrying outside their religion. The only Jews left will be the ultra-religious.
ReplyDeleteAlong with the essay that's the subject of this post, another heaves-inducing display of Jewish arrogance is "My Own Private India" by Joel Stein, which Steve Sailer has a blog post up about. Here's a Jew who is "very much in favor of immigration everywhere in the U.S" -- except in his OWN hometown, by dot-Indian immigrants.
A commenter on Steve's post pointed out that Indians are competition for many of the economic niches which Jews currently occupy in America.
Which raises this (forbidden)thought: I can almost see how it resembles biological insect-control in the garden. To eliminate one sort of insect, introduce another with more benign traits that you don't mind, who will out-compete the first.
Since India was conquered by Britain, we have historical evidence that Indians are much more amenable to White leadership than Jews. If Indians outcompete the Jews for elite spots, and the secular Jews are dying out, anyway, might that not be exploitable by us, the native-born White Americans, as a lever to regain control of our country?
A line from my post today sums it up well The Joys of Diversity:
ReplyDeleteAmerica's Founding class is lauded only for permitting diversity, not for setting up a unique meritocracy and protecting the rights of Man.
America's founding peoples aren't celebrated for the great country they've constructed. They're only celebrated for sharing that great country with their non-kin.
Auster wrote a great post on this theme awhile back, but I don't feel like finding it. I think it was responding to a similar article by Frum.
Yes, except that secular Jews in America will be gone in a generation or two. They are either failing to reproduce or marrying outside their religion.
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. Jewishness operates like blackness - the one-drop rule is in full effect. Many of todays secular Jews are themselves only partly Jewish. But that's the part they are loyal to. Jewishness has not had anything to do with religion for about a century now.
Feldman *is* a WASP. Secular Jews *are* WASPs... otherwise the phrase would be a contradiction in terms. It is indeed the triumph of the WASPs that their ideology has so pervaded this country to occupy any position of power in this nation one is required to be, culturally speaking, a WASP...
ReplyDeleteSteven N: I don't follow you. How is Feldman a WASP, and what phrase would be a contradiction in terms?
ReplyDeletehttp://samuraimohel.wordpress.com/2007/07/31/noah-feldman-is-a-whiny-bitch/
ReplyDeleteFeldman married a Korean . . . so he has a stake in justifying exogamy.
By the way, there are no Wasps left. My grandparents were wasps, they wouldn't think of marrying CATHOLICS . . . That whole mentality disappeared with intermarriage, not with some political surrender.
Dennis, I think some of your bloggers are letting the "jews are nepotistic and ethnocentric" meme dominate their thinking, even in situations where it does not fit.
ReplyDeleteNoah Feldman is a real believer in meritocracy - he believes that the people with the highest IQ and / or the people who perform best should win. He doesn't believe that success should be distributed on the basis of tribe
If you dig in to any of his writings this will be clear. More importantly, if you look at his personal life this should be clear as well.
Feldman has nothing for scorn and contempt for Jewish ethnocentrics - the Jewish ethnocentrics in his life urged him to marry a Jewish female, while the strict meritocrats in his life urged him to ignore this factor.
Feldman decided to laugh at the Jewish ethnocentrics and marry a Korean.
Dennis, many of your readers are quite honest and true to themselves when they say that it is a sin for white men like themselves to marry asian females. I don't criticize your readers who hold this position.
But look at what we have here, readers of this blog who claim they would never in a million years consider marrying a Korean female saying that FELDMAN is the ethnocentric one. By any reasonable metric, it is the readers of your blog that are the ethnocentric ones.
It is not clear to me whether their smear of feldman is motivated by malice or ignorance.
I don't think so. Jewishness operates like blackness - the one-drop rule is in full effect. Many of todays secular Jews are themselves only partly Jewish. But that's the part they are loyal to. Jewishness has not had anything to do with religion for about a century now.
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't describe a single Jew I know, and certainly none of the half-Jews I know, who mention their Jewishness in the same way someone might mention that they are half-Italian.
Besides, I would happily have accepted every single victim of the Holocaust into the United States if that had been the only immigration of the last 60 years. Jews, on the whole, have done far more good for this country than harm.
OneSTDV,
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering why you removed Alt Right from your blogroll? Even though some of their regular writers (Hoste, Spencer, Kurtagic) are in some respects mediocre, Sailer, Kalb, Trifkovic, Donovan, and Turner are excellent and their articles certainly deserve to be read.
I must say that I was hoping your writings would eventually appear there. Unfortunately, that does not seem likely.
I would argue that by WASP Feldman really means white Christians, not specifically protestants of Anglo/Saxon heritage. Most Jews are both unfamiliar with and hostile to Christians of any denomination, lumping them all together under the "goy" label. By unfamiliar, I mean they truly don't know what the New Testament contains (but they know it's anti-Semitic) or how Christian beliefs and practices differ, and they persist in believing that they (the Jews) are the norm, just like everyone else. That is why you consistently find articles in the MSM about the joys of single motherhood, or why women can't find men to marry, and they're all written by Jews who quote other Jews. That is why you constantly see the misnomer "Judeo-Christian" applied to our country and heritage. Other than extremely traditional Catholics with large families, or with exceedingly obvious ethnic accents or appearance (primarily east coast Italian immigrants, for example) America's modern "cafeteria Catholics" are pretty thoroughly integrated into society and difficult for the average Jew to differentiate from a Methodist or Presbyterian (of course Evangelicals are another story entirely - they're all considered subhuman baby machines who are at once both dangerously stupid and skillfully cunning in their desire to institute a theocracy, you know). It's the classic "kto/kgo (who/whom)" question, and Feldman is openly celebrating that triumph of the meritocracy which just so happens to be largely Jewish and now increasingly Asian. I realize some whites consider Chinese a desirable minority; I've lived in an Asian country and my Texas neighborhood is heavily Asian, and they're just as clannish and anti-White as most Jews are (they don't generally commit crimes or trash their homes, but don't look for neighborhood associations or public school volunteers - if it doesn't benefit their immediate family or clan, it's not in their interest).
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't count on Jews dying out any time soon; they may publicly bemoan decreased birthrates or increased intermarriage rates, but their percentage of the population has remained relatively stable for decades now, and their domination of various professions, regardless of their population percentage, has only continued to increase. Just as an IT shop with an Indian boss will hire only Indians (or a Chinese only another Chinese), Jews will continue to prefer their own while insisting they operate on purely meritocratic principles, and they truly believe they are just ordinary, white-bread Americans. The only exceptions are those Jews who move outside heavily Jewish areas and discover that they are not like everyone else, and then they insist they are the victims of active anti-Semitism. When we first moved to Texas in 1994, there was no public acknowledgment of any Jewish holiday and no Jewish food in the grocery stores. Gradually there began to be separate Passover displays, and then permanent food sections; gradually there began to be more synagogues and more letters to the editor, gradually there were more articles about a Jewish parent complaining that a particular school district had inadvertently scheduled homecoming on a particular Friday so that their single Jewish student couldn't attend. Because they live in such ethnic enclaves and because America is so increasingly balkanized, they will continue to operate as both an ever vigilant, eternally discriminated against minority, and at the same time an ascendant and assimilated part of the majority.
For the purposes of full disclosure only, and to provide evidence that I know of what I speak, I am a white nationalist of Jewish descent, a baptized and believing Christian who generally believes in HBD, and the parent of two white, Christian, and conservative American children (in my defense, even Tanstaafl noted his wife is half Jewish; my ancestry neither constitutes my identity nor informs my opinions).
This is quite funny, but it's sort of along the lines of what AngloAmerikan says. Besides all the double speak and hypocristy, liberalism does have this effect on people.
ReplyDeleteAnd now Kevin MacDonald himself has written an article about it.
ReplyDeleteObserve not The Great And Powerful Oz, but the man behind the curtain...
ReplyDeleteWho really wants a career as a law professor and a federal judge anyway? Lots of visibility, lots of prestige, but not much money (virtually nothing by real elite standards) and not much real power.
Constitutional law is the kind of thing the real elite lets Jews do to feel like they are running things. Jews in America like everyplace else have made their way by making themselves useful to those in power.
Does anybody on the Supreme Court have a place in the Hamptons?
I would argue that by WASP Feldman really means white Christians, not specifically protestants of Anglo/Saxon heritage
ReplyDeleteTime to inaugurate a new term, broader than WASP but not as broad as "white Christian" could go. "Non-Hispanic gentile" is too cumbersome. I suggest gringoy only tongue in cheek. I guess "Eurowhite" will have to do.
No one cares about her religion?
ReplyDeleteUm, no. More like no one who writes opinion pieces at the NYT cares about her religion, since it is the "right" one.
The fact that Noah Feldman married a Korean just shows that the Jews are really against diversity and race-mixing... or something.
ReplyDeleteYes, except that secular Jews in America will be gone in a generation or two. They are either failing to reproduce or marrying outside their religion.
ReplyDeleteNo. The intermarriage rate is just 20-25%. And there are plenty of reinforcements in Israel, where the intermarriage rate is zero, and the birth rate is high.
Dennis,
ReplyDeleteThere are lots of WASP and Jewish elites in California. I do not know your background, but I guess you must be from the working class or that your folks must have been recent white immigrants because it sounds like you never met many of WASPs or Jews in person.
WASPs tend to be goo-goos. That is a good government type. In the old days they tended to be liberal Republicans. Now most are probably Democrats. Although (former, and perhaps future, California governor) Jerry Brown is a good example of a more liberal WASP; he is has the definite moralistic goo-goo streak. This was also true of his father Pat Brown, although Jerry Brown’s father had very different (pro-growth) policies. These are the people descended from the puritans and the abolitionists. They take their moral standing (some say smug moral superiority) seriously. In California, they tended to look down on the Oakies even though both groups are immigrant groups from Britain.
The professor was not speaking to you; he was speaking to the many WASPs, and their liberal fellow travelers, who read the New York Times. He was acknowledging WASP moral standing and the value of classic WASP institutions like Harvard Law School. In short he is saying that he wants to join their meritocratic club and help make it shine. It is an old bargain. White ethnics, like Jews and Italians (the two largest ethnic groups on the US Supreme Court), gain advancement while the WASPs get to be flattered.
Does the professor mean it or is the argument in bad faith? He probably means it. This is a Harvard Law professor and not some sharp elbowed immigrant. I am sure he gives great letter of recs to all his top students whether they are Jews, Irish, NAMS, or anything else. Does he mind that many of his students are Jewish? Given that his wife is Korean he might not care at all and in any case is no chauvinist. This negates the whole thesis of the orginal post. Meaning Dennis was looking for a sinister meaning in the op-ed when there was none.
Finally, since the readership here has never having experienced white guilt firsthand the people here seems to have little understanding of the phenomena. It is laughable that liberal Jews do not experience white guilt. It makes me wonder if how many of you have ever talked a Jewish person in a social setting.
Basically white liberals attribute their success, not to the fact that they are better than other people (remember liberals believe that basically people are mostly the same), but that they were that they had rich parents or were the first group to learn ‘the secret’. What is the ‘secret’? It varies. The WASP believe they (and some of their English cousins) were the first to discover a modern moral code. 200 years in the more enlightened future practically everybody will have babies only if it is financially prudent, believe in good (non-corrupt) government, and be environmentally sensitive. The WASPs have simply gotten their first and it is their duty to share their unearned good fortune. Standard white liberals believe that 200 years in the future the world will resemble a cross between the best parts of America and Europe. America was merely the first society to be open, rich and tolerate and Europe was the first place with social democracy. The rest of the world will catch up and it is a liberal’s role to sacrifice and educate so to help them join the club. Jews believe they were the first ethnic group to discover the value of an education and the value of professional jobs. Liberal Jews believe that 200 years from now, the world will be even more complex and that practically everybody but the most unfortunate will go to college and become some sort of professional. It is their duty to help everybody else get there.The various liberals are serious and will often put their money where their mouth is.
I hate when people say things like "who cares what religion people are?" or "who cares what race people are?", because it confuses factual claims with normative claims. Obviously, it is just a fact that people care about religion and race. This has always been the case and I suspect it always will be.
ReplyDeleteSteven N: I don't follow you. How is Feldman a WASP...?
ReplyDeleteI think it's the hair style that has him convinced.
Yes, Noah Feldman can't be ethnocentric, because he married out.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, Barry Bonds can't be a racist because he married a white broad. Never mind that he won't sign autographs for white kids.
Similarly, white slaveholders who banged their black slaves couldn't have been racist, either. Not even if they published pro-slavery tracts.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Noah Feldman married a Korean just shows that the Jews are really against diversity and race-mixing... or something.
6/29/2010 06:45:00 PM
You must have missed Feldman's article where he pointed out that pictures of his oriental wife were airbrushed out of his Orthodox Jewish High School's class reunion pictures.
I've lived in an Asian country and my Texas neighborhood is heavily Asian.
ReplyDeleteAre you in Richardson?
gringoy
ReplyDeleteLOL
Feldman *is* a WASP. Secular Jews *are* WASPs... otherwise the phrase would be a contradiction in terms.
ReplyDeleteNo. Feldman is not a "WASP." Jews are not "WASPs." You clearly have no idea what the word "WASP" means.
Although (former, and perhaps future, California governor) Jerry Brown is a good example of a more liberal WASP; he is has the definite moralistic goo-goo streak.
Jerry Brown is a part-Irish Roman Catholic, not a "WASP."
WASPs tend to be goo-goos. That is a good government type. In the old days they tended to be liberal Republicans. Now most are probably Democrats.
Where is your evidence that most "WASPs" are Democrats? White Protestants voted McCain 65%, Obama 34%. White Catholics, by contrast, voted McCain 52%, Obama 47%.
Furthermore, the old rich are more conservative than the new rich.
Moldbugites like Steven N and Anonymous 6/29/2010 07:33:00 PM ought to read about conflict between "WASPs" and Jews.
What we have here is simple. some readers identify themselves primarily as "white survivalists" and see America as a place that should be run by fellow "whites"
ReplyDeleteOther readers identify themselves primarily as "high IQ people" and see america as a place that should be run by fellow "high IQ people"
The problem is that every time a high IQ person makes his argument, the "white survivalists" make the silly claim that racial tribalism is what is really motivating the high IQ people.
Reason this claim is silly is because so many of the high IQ people like Derb decide to marry someone of another race. And Steve has frequently
All races have some members that politely wish for racial tribalism. The white race has people who come to this blog. Noah Feldman had people in his own community who asked him to consider racial tribalism. Feldman decided to reject racial tribalism by marrying a korean.
It is just silly for all the white survivalists on this blog to claim that Feldman is just as tribal as they are. It makes no sense - if he was motivated by tribal instincts he would not have married out
Never mind that he won't sign autographs for white kids.
ReplyDeleteI'd never heard that before.
"I don't sign for white people."
But then I don't pay much attention to Barry Bond, who seemed pretty willing to take PEDs developed (primarily) by "white people".
In my family of origin it was simply bad manners to make a rant about some other persons ethnic background. Always.
ReplyDeleteIf you do not like them just stay the fuck away.
No one I knew ever got to choose who their parents/G.parents were.
This whole thing will sort itself out with or without our making speeches that will look us look dumb when later on someone actually reads them.
"telling white Christians"
ReplyDeleteAn interesting turn of phrase considering neither MacDonald nor you mentioned how white Catholics also benefited from the largess of the founding Americans. Interesting also that those white Catholics are from homelands that remain largely homogeneous.
"For the purposes of full disclosure only, and to provide evidence that I know of what I speak, I am a white nationalist of Jewish descent, a baptized and believing Christian who generally believes in HBD, and the parent of two white, Christian, and conservative American children (in my defense, even Tanstaafl noted his wife is half Jewish; my ancestry neither constitutes my identity nor informs my opinions)."
ReplyDeleteHa! After all that you're a Jew. Which means that WNs such as Svigor, Chechar, etc. will never accept or trust you. Enjoy hating yourself for the next few decades.
"Does the professor mean it or is the argument in bad faith? He probably means it. This is a Harvard Law professor and not some sharp elbowed immigrant."
He's not just a Harvard Law professor, but a Rhodes Scholar, who was one of the youngest full professors at NYU Law before getting headhunted by Harvard. He also studied Arabic at Oxford and spent a year in Iraq helping the Iraqis write their constitution.
And he's paying what he sees as the highest compliment to WASPs, that they were meritocratic and inclusive enough to open the doors of elite institutions to others. Similarly, judging by Feldman's wife, I'm sure he wouldn't mind seeing a Jewish Justice get replaced by a Korean one in the future, as long as the Korean one shared his progressive values.
For all the teeth gnashing here, the truth is that Jews like Feldman are advancing the same political ideology of their WASP predecessors. Last names and appearances may have changed, but those of you who hate the current elite would have hated the original WASP elite too, because the current elite shares the same ideology.
"Unlike almost every other dominant ethnic, racial or religious group in world history, white Protestants have ceded their socioeconomic power by hewing voluntarily to the values of merit and inclusion, values now shared broadly by Americans of different backgrounds."
ReplyDeleteSo many falsehoods in such a short statement.
-Christians are called to multiply and exercise dominion, not cede territory.
-Those who have been "included" of late, have not been included based on merit.
-The values of merit and inclusion are not shared by any other group in America.
"Since India was conquered by Britain, we have historical evidence that Indians are much more amenable to White leadership than Jews."
ReplyDeleteHoste pointed out that "Indians are obsessed with fairness". Fair skin tone that is. I wonder if that plays a psychological role in their having a greater affinity for whites than Jews have since Jews are generally fair themselves.
Last names and appearances may have changed, but those of you who hate the current elite would have hated the original WASP elite too, because the current elite shares the same ideology.
ReplyDeleteNot really.
Sheila, you will always have the company of those who respect expert knowledge and clear expression. Don't be put off by Ricardo.
ReplyDelete- Daybreaker
Re: Rum, at 6/29/2010 11:55:00 PM...
ReplyDeleteWhen your neighborhood is flooded by an alien people, "just stay away" is not an option, and Whites have been trying "White flight" as an option for decades with only bad results.
When the power positions in your society become the property of an alien people, "just stay away" is not an option. The power of the Supreme Court reaches everywhere. It's no longer a question of whether you like them but of whether they like you, and of whether they will act in ways that are good for people like you.
People are not refusing to live and let live. They are reacting to the fact that the "live and let live" option has already broken down due to the aggressiveness of others. They are not being allowed to live, not culturally and demographically and in the long run.
- Daybreaker
neither MacDonald nor you mentioned how white Catholics also benefited from the largess of the founding Americans.
ReplyDeletePlease elaborate on how "white Catholics also benefited from the largess of the founding Americans", after first confirming that you know the meaning of "largess".
those white Catholics are from homelands that remain largely homogeneous.
Germany? France? Italy? Spain? Ireland? Where are these largely homogeneous white Catholic homelands? I might want to move to one.
Thanks for the kind words, Daybreaker, but Ricardo's words carry no weight with me - he is merely a typical Jew (i.e. he believes anyone of Jewish descent who declines to identify with and/or adopt the belief system of other Jews is a "self hater"). To someone like Ricardo, it is incomprehensible that I both understand and respect those who, despite my faith, beliefs, actions, and skin color, consider my "blood" to be tainted. As Rum noted, I didn't get to choose my parents/grandparents - and except that it would mean my beloved all-American, half-Jewish children wouldn't exist, if I could go back and exclude the vast majority of Jewish immigrants to this country, I would. Despite their constant touting of their high intellect and achievements, their net impact here has ultimately been malign. I don't want to go on about the issue here; as I noted I only mentioned my background to avoid typically aggressive Jewish commenters countering that I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about. It doesn't define me, it's not part of my life, it's not something I consider important, and it's certainly not something I want people to immediately think of when they read my posts. FYI Ben Tillman, no, I do not live in Richardson. If we could afford it and my husband didn't have to stay where his job was, I'd move to North Dakota or Idaho - fewer Jews, ethnots, and cultural enrichers so far as I'm aware.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting turn of phrase considering neither MacDonald nor you mentioned how white Catholics also benefited from the largess of the founding Americans. Interesting also that those white Catholics are from homelands that remain largely homogeneous.
ReplyDeleteWhite Catholics these days generally don't constitute an ethnic identity separate from white Americans. But I would say that the old nativists, the Know Nothings, were within their rights to want to exclude Catholic immigrants, a fight they ultimately lost.
And I agree with the above commenter: where are the homogeneous Catholic homelands? Austria comes to mind as doing a halfway decent job of it so far, but the rest are being inundated with non-Catholic and non-Christian immigrants.
To those who say that because Feldman is married to a Korean and therefore isn't ethnocentric, that only means that he has a lower degree of ethnocentrism than his fellows, which they are by no means relinquishing. In my own case, I'm related by adoption, marriage, and blood to Asians (not my own marriage or children), and that doesn't stop me from taking up the white cause, even though certain people have said that because of these relationships I can never truly see the light.
Dennis, Anon 10:07 posted the following"
ReplyDeletethose white Catholics are from homelands that remain largely homogeneous.
Germany? France? Italy? Spain? Ireland? Where are these largely homogeneous white Catholic homelands? I might want to move to one
_______
My response:
Poland. Poland is a Catholic nation that has refused to allow non white immigration. In fact if you carefully read the comments of the "white survivalists" that post here, you will see that among all the nations in the world that exist today, 2010, Poland is the ideal place for the white survivalists to move to. The population that already lives in Poland is already very receptive to the white survivalist message, more receptive than any other white group with its own country
Researching Feldman, I came across this interesting article on the matter of Jewish intermarriage with non-Jews. It seems to be in about the same position as Protestant/Catholic intermarriage was - 150 years ago.
ReplyDelete=========================
About seven years ago as a fresh young rabbi of a congregation in London, it came to my attention that our volunteer Cantor, Torah Chanter and Warden was married to a non-Jewish woman.
Like any new professional I asked my superiors within the Modern Orthodox organization I worked how to handle the issue. I was referred all the way up to the office of the President who himself consulted with the major rabbinic authorities of the organization and a course of action was laid out.
It was decided that this individual could no longer serve in any official capacity within the synagogue, neither as Cantor nor as Torah reader, and in fact he would only be allowed to be called up to the Torah once a year on the anniversary of his father’s passing. In addition, he would be stripped of his position of warden.
I felt that this decision was rather harsh and asked for consideration of this man’s previous service to the synagogue and the effect this decision would have on him. However, I was told that someone who marries outside of the Jewish faith has made his decision to cut himself or herself off from the Jewish community and they therefore have to deal with the consequences.
=============================
Poland is a Catholic nation that has refused to allow non white immigration.
ReplyDeleteCan you document that claim, perhaps by referring to specific laws in place in Poland which prohibit non-white immigration?
This last Annonymous is absolutely right. Poland is an oasis in a Western world gone mad. And guess what? Poland is healthy precisely because it enjoys a healthy dose of old-fashioned, Catholic anti-Semitism (and therefore not much liberalism).
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, Greg Johnson has just translated to English one of the most powerful pieces by Guillaume Faye I’ve ever read about the forthcoming Crash (read excerpts: here).
"Poland is healthy precisely because it enjoys a healthy dose of old-fashioned, Catholic anti-Semitism"
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=172795
"Not really."
ReplyDeleteAdd n/a to the list of WNs who will never accept Sheila, despite how heartily she embraces their views.
"Poland is healthy precisely because it enjoys a healthy dose of old-fashioned, Catholic anti-Semitism"
Say hi to this guy when you get there.
My response:
ReplyDeletePoland. Poland is a Catholic nation that has refused to allow non white immigration.
Yes, because non-whites were just queuing up to move to Poland in the 1960s through the 1980s! LOL
Blacks and Asians are now starting to appear in Krakow, Poland's main tourist city. They run a lot of the kebab places and work in kitchens and bars.
Since the fall of communism Prague has been the most 'advanced' (ie most Western) city in the old Eastern Bloc and a kind of model for future development. Wenceslaw Square is full of groups of blacks from Nigeria, Senegal, and Cameroon from afternoon until the middle of the night. There are lots of Asians throughout Prague. (Though in my last trip there I discovered that these Asians are mostly from central parts of the old USSR, not China, or local Gypsies, not recent Subcon immigrants). There are quite a lot of Arabs too. Internet cafes play Arab music and fast food joints often have 'halal' signs. If Prague is anything to go by most Eastern European cities will eventually go the way of Prague and eventually the cities of Western Europe if nothing is done at the political level and their economies don't collapse.
Decades of communism and low living standards are the only reasons for relatively few minorities in Eastern Europe, not Catholicism or ethno-nationalism. Northern Ireland is similar. Despite being an integral part of the UK it only started to experience an influx of non-whites from England and abroad once the Troubles were over for nearly a decade. Wealth and political stability have a down side.
The two latest commenters who disagree with my claim that Poland is healthy because it enjoys a healthy dose of anti-Semitism cite two cases to counter my argument. What a shallow way of debating! (what obviously counts is how the majority of the Polish people feel about the jews).
ReplyDeleteAdd n/a to the list of WNs who will never accept Sheila, despite how heartily she embraces their views.
ReplyDeleteI have not seen so incomprehensible a statement since sabril last posted.
"But I would say that the old nativists, the Know Nothings, were within their rights to want to exclude Catholic immigrants.."
ReplyDeleteThe Know Nothings but not the 1924 KKK?
Bavaria, the centre of German Catholicism, or Italy had low standards of living?
"Italian: 92.5%, other European (mostly Albanian, Romanian, Ukrainian and others) 4%, North African (mostly Berber) 2%, others 1.5%"
"In July 2007, Munich had 1.34 million inhabitants; 300,129 of those did not hold German citizenship. The city has strong Turkish and Balkan communities. The largest groups of foreign nationals were Turks (43,309), Albanians (30,385), Croats (24,866), Serbs (24,439), Greeks (22,486), Austrians (21,411), and Italians (20,847)."
Based on those numbers 3% of the Munich population are Turks. Most are Europeans. The halcyon days of US whiteness was 1965 when America was, apparently, 90% white. Catholic Bavaria and Italy exceed that number.
Largess, yes the usage is correct. Can you imagine the nature of the US if it was founded by French, Spanish or Irish Catholics. Too funny.
Poles and Jews:
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing about Polish Jewry is that, historically, they tended to be more bourgeois and mainstream than their Russian Jewish brethren to the east.
Yet it is they who faced the full brunt of Nazi extermination while most of the Russian Jews survived.
Vladimir Jabotinsky himself was from Russia, but his rightist ideology found the most success among Polish Jews.
In modern times, the situation has reversed, with Russian Jews being associated with the (often extreme) right and the descendants of Polish Jews in Israel being associated, perhaps unfairly, with the old leftist establishment.
White = European descent. Jews aren't white ethnics.
ReplyDeleteRum, I was raised in the same way. Obviously, you don't have to make fun of someone's ancestry in their face. Everybody does it behind closed doors though. And when the flight or fight thing comes about, it better be fight. Daybreaker is right.
Ricardo, that's a lot of hubris. It did amuse me though.
Anon@6/30/2010 11:09:00, that's what sane people do. People of European descent should do this too.
Chechar, have you been to Eastern Europe? Or Poland? I mean, no offense, but you don't understand the region at all. Poland isn't really that antisemitic. I mean, they dislike Jews just as much as they probably dislike other foreigners. And this isn't irrational hatred or anything. By the way, you didn't have any arguments about what the majority of Poles feel about things.
Matra, it's not like the Czech republic can shut the border due to the EU. Also, there's a difference in between how the Czechs treat their immigrants and how Americans do. Or how the French do. Did you ask if the Czech consider their immigrants Czech? Because they don't. They can move there and they'll always be foreigners, even if they'll be there for 200 years from now on.
Largess, yes the usage is correct.
ReplyDeleteFrom the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
: liberal giving (as of money) to or as if to an inferior; also : something so given
From the Free Dictionary:
a. Liberality in bestowing gifts, especially in a lofty or condescending manner.
b. Money or gifts bestowed.
Please enlighten me as to the "money and gifts" given to Catholics in America by Protestants, with or without a condescending manner.
@ “Chechar… I mean, no offense, but you don't understand the region at all. Poland isn't really that antisemitic.”
ReplyDeleteMy sources were an article by Taksei (a native Polish) in Brussels Journal, and what Borislav Geremek, another Polish, said in TV when he visited the town where I live today.
6/29, 7:33PM anon:
ReplyDeleteWhile so many anons drive me crazy, your long commentary seems quite reasonable. However, your view of the kind of America desired by the left is simplistic and incomplete. In a long and interesting essay on the role of leftist politics in American history, the philosopher Richard Rorty sees leftists as the primary army for the total transformation of American values into those consonent with the dreams of our socialist ancestors.
Rorty celebrates Whitman and Dewey as principle factors in the evolution of liberalism in America.He sees them as champions of a future where class and caste have no place. The Left has usually been anti-military and redistributionist, as were Whitman and Dewey, but they were also champions of diversity. To become successfully diverse America had to define constitutional democracy to encompass subjectivism, secular faith, and absolute egalitarianism.
This means that Christianity was a problem for progressives. Of course, most of the Left before the Sixties were Christians or Jews at least nominally. Atheists were rare birds in those times, but the core beliefs of these early liberals seem utterly compatible with the political realities of our times. Whether Whitman and Dewey would construe open borders as logical outcomes of their views is less relevant than the harsh reality of today's progressives pushing that agenda to its ultimate conclusion.Redistributionist paranoia and a pollyanna view of grotesque, calamitous diversity is the order of the day and has overtones far more ugly than your milque-toast presentation.
"For all the teeth gnashing here, the truth is that Jews like Feldman are advancing the same political ideology of their WASP predecessors."
ReplyDeleteThe old elite were an ethnic caste
who claimed to be elite on merit but in reality it was based on membership of an ethnic caste and restricted access to institutions which had the power to brand people with elite status.
Some of that ethnic caste had a belief in "fair play" which had a lot of good side-effects when they lived solely among their own kind but is a weakness when living and competing with middle-easterners.
The wannabe new elite exploited that weakness by using diversity, inclusion and disparate impact type arguments against the old elite in favour of themselves and whoever were their allies at the time.
And now the new elite are an ethnic caste who claim to be elite on merit but in reality it is based on membership of an ethnic caste and restricted access to institutions which have the power to brand people with elite status.
So yes, very similar.
Poland is the ideal place for the white survivalists to move to? So how come all the Poles are moving to western Europe?
ReplyDeleteLeave it to me to throw a smoke bomb and then disappear... that little thing called work-n-all; but my assertion was intended seriously: Feldman is a WASP, and by this I mean culturally speaking.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I am stretching that definition farther than others would like to stretch it, but by cultural WASP I point to the dominant ruling class of this nation, which has (obviously) evolved ever since the first WASPs set foot here--evolved so much in fact that most of the technical theological details (the "P" part) have been utterly lost to the progress of time. But the basic principles: yes, good (and progressive!) government, meritocracy, liberal creationism, high levels (potentially suicidal levels) of social trust combined with a self-concious eschewal of race/in-group conciousness. WASPs are now, largely, SWPLs:
They were not replaced by SWPLs, they became them. Therefore being a SWPL (a WASP so WASPy that being actually anglo, or white, or protestant doesn't matter anymore) is practically the only way into halls of power (academia, journalism, politics) in America... and sure as hell the only way onto the SCOTUS.
Yes, WASPs now marry (alas!) Catholics, but only because most Catholics are WASPs, i.e., they have largely bought in to the fashionable opinions and lifestyles of the ruling elite. You won't find a fiercer anti-Catholic bigot than a progressive Catholic. The progressive Catholic is (culturally) a WASP. The progressive Muslim (tho' he is rarer) is too.
Similarly, "Secular Jew", insofar as it explictly deemphasizes religious affiliation, and (almost always) correlates with a demphasis as well of a distinctively cultural/racial mindset, therefore would be a contradiction in terms except for this culturally WASP sensibility, the extant heritage of puritanism (much of which no truly cultural or religous Jew ever believed).
"Secular Jew", insofar as it explictly deemphasizes religious affiliation, and (almost always) correlates with a demphasis as well of a distinctively cultural/racial mindset
ReplyDeleteSecular Jews do of course de-emphasize religion, but they typically compensate for this by increasing their cultural/racial mindset.
Look at the "JournoList" - a secret grouping of left-wing reporters and policy-makers which just so happens to be 99% Jewish!
"An interesting turn of phrase considering neither MacDonald nor you mentioned how white Catholics also benefited from the largess of the founding Americans. Interesting also that those white Catholics are from homelands that remain largely homogeneous."
ReplyDeleteLargely Homogeneous???
A big F-U to you!
Afonso Henriques
Secular Jews do of course de-emphasize religion, but they typically compensate for this by increasing their cultural/racial mindset.
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen much of this. Which Jews are more likely to marry non-Jews, secular or orthodox? Who will have fewer kids, celebrate fewer (if any) feasts, be less likely to keep Kosher, know Yiddish? Ms. Kagan summed it up very well in her humorous remark: Her identification with Judaism seems to consist of eating at Chinese restaurants on Christmas. Ms. Kagan, like nearly all "Secular Jews", cannot let her identity (at least as that of a Jew) matter at all. (Her identity as a woman or possibly as a lesbian; well those are groups to be of which to be proud to belong!) And thus, she is (culturally) a WASP, like all the other members of the SCOTUS.
Steven N,
ReplyDeleteIf "is it good for the jews?" was the sole element of jewish morality when dealing with non-jews then when dealing with white people jews would be functionally identical to sociopaths.
Chutzpah in that context would be sociopathic behaviour like blatant and shameless lying.
"And thus, she is (culturally) a WASP, like all the other members of the SCOTUS."
Like the wise Latina i suppose.
The same people who say disparate impact is proof of racism when white people benefit say the opposite when jews benefit and they are not remotely troubled by the double standard.
Americans are heading for 1917.
Ms. Kagan, like nearly all "Secular Jews", cannot let her identity (at least as that of a Jew) matter at all. (Her identity as a woman or possibly as a lesbian; well those are groups to be of which to be proud to belong!) And thus, she is (culturally) a WASP, like all the other members of the SCOTUS.
ReplyDeleteI notice that you use "WASP" to mean "cultural leftist". I don't think that's a very sensible use of words. White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are not unusually culturally leftist. Not in the same sense that Jews are.
Agreed. I say we retire the cultural/ideological usage of WASP and replace it with "establishment leftist" or "ruling class leftist" or "inner party" or something like that.
ReplyDeleteHa! After all that you're a Jew. Which means that WNs such as Svigor, Chechar, etc. will never accept or trust you. Enjoy hating yourself for the next few decades.
ReplyDeleteDennis didn't like my post, I assume because I repeatedly linked your attitude (ranging from sloppy to outright deceptive with facts, devoid of curiosity, authoritarian) to your Jewishness. So, I'll try again, short form:
Your characterizations of my positions aren't just off, they're bass ackwards. Try asking me my opinions and beliefs (from whether I call myself a WN (no), to whether I reject Sheila (no)), rather than stating them for me in the absence of any evidence, based on projections of your own character.
Feldman is a WASP, and by this I mean culturally speaking.
ReplyDeleteAshkenazis have "Judeoformed" the founding stock to the the extent that philo-Semites can point to the similarities and play semantic chicken and egg games.
More honestly stated, the founding stock are now Ashkenazi, culturally speaking. The difference is that being culturally Ashkenazi is in Ashkenazi interests, not founding stock interests.
It is just silly for all the white survivalists on this blog to claim that Feldman is just as tribal as they are. It makes no sense - if he was motivated by tribal instincts he would not have married out
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying he's just as tribalistic as I. I'm saying his marrying out is not tantamount to his being devoid of tribalistic sentiment, or even close. There is nothing about marrying out that precludes tribalism.
The very idea of setting the benchmark for tribalism at the mean for ethnopatriots is absurd; the vast majority of us are more tribalistic than most Ashkenazi, but WTF does that have to do with anything?
More honestly stated, the founding stock are now Ashkenazi, culturally speaking. The difference is that being culturally Ashkenazi is in Ashkenazi interests, not founding stock interests.
ReplyDeleteInteresting thesis, Svigor. I say secularist of any type (especially Ashkenazi) = cultural WASP. You say secularist of any type = cultural Ashkenazi. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. But, with the exception of closing the halls of power for the to anyone but a carefully vetted elite, an elite the Ashkenazi will no doubt inevitably qualify to enter at much higher rates than the population at large, I fail to see how the current regnant ideology benefits Ashkenazi, qua Ashkenazi. They are marrying out and failing to reproduce at astonishing rates. So who benefits?
The Ashkenazi outmarriage rate is dwarfed by the outmarriage rate of founding stock. So Ashkenazis benefit more than founding stock.
ReplyDeleteIt is laughable that liberal Jews do not experience white guilt.
ReplyDeleteThe experience a hell of a lot less of it than whites do. There is zero white guilt amongst Ashkenazis in the public sphere. Ashkenazi guilt is in not doing enough for Ashkenazis. This is readily apparent in the public sphere. Insofar as Ashkenazis experience white guilt, they are less Ashkenazi than the norm.
Your assertion falls all to shit when you delve into specifics. What is white guilt? Amerinds, slave trade, holocaust, inquisition, bla bla bla. Ashkenazis are the WHITE HATS in white guilt, or at worst, downtrodden outside observers. So how in the hell can they really participate? They can't.
Some of us do pay attention to Ashkenazis, you know.
P.S., I'm willing to entertain the idea that Ashkenazis are hurting themselves just as much with their behavior as they're hurting Euros in general. I don't buy it, because I've thought about it long enough to satisfy myself that it just isn't true (who's more likely to shield themselves from the crap they purvey, the upper classes or the hoi polloi? And which group to Ashkenazis overwhelmingly fall into?).
ReplyDeleteBut it's immaterial, really, since motives aren't behavior, and vice-versa. Even if Ashkenazis are screwing themselves over the way they're screwing us, they're still screwing us and need to be stopped.
Cui bono doesn't determine facts on the ground, it serves to explain them. Thus, it doesn't determine whether we're in an Ashkenazi regime, or a founding stock regime.