The quote comes from a short article by Henry Bauer, an HIV skeptic, called Nobel Prizes Illustrate How Research is Done and Evaluated. Bauer lists a number of scientists who, prior to winning their Nobel Prizes, were widely disparaged for their later prize-winning theories. The list includes the aforementioned Lauterbur, as well as the discoverers of the bacterial causation of stomach ulcers, the discoverer of prions, and even Einstein and Planck.
So how are we, the lay public, to make sense of claims such as those involved in HIV skepticism? The short answer is, I believe, it's damned difficult. In this particular case, the number of people in the world able to pronounce decisively on this matter must be very few, and even so there is the matter of trust. For instance, critics of the HIV "denialists" want editors and journals that publish the skeptics blacklisted. Now, how trustworthy is the word of someone who wants critics silenced? (Rhetorical question.) We laymen can only attempt to make sense of the differing opinions in this or any other area. Shutting down critics hinders the flow of ideas, the emergence of truth, and is unworthy of any society which calls itself free.
Off the top of my head, here are some other topics I've come up with in which proponents of the majority view believe that they have/had everything right, and critics should sit down and shut up.
- The lipid hypothesis of heart disease. Proponents of the lipid hypothesis have been in the saddle for well over 30 years, and some of them like its inventor Ancel Keys, wanted critics fired or marginalized, using the same reasoning that the HIV anti-denialists use: the critics are killing people. The lipid hypothesis has lately been shown to be almost certainly wrong.
- Global warming. Critics of AGW are accused of obstruction of the progress necessary to almost literally prevent the world's destruction.
- Antioxidants. Somewhat less controversial, but for perhaps the past 20 years it has been widely held by biological scientists that dietary antioxidants are critical to good health. New evidence is emerging that maybe they aren't good for you after all.
- Statins. The medical establishment believes that they should be handed out like candy, some even advocating putting them in the water supply. A vocal group of critics says that statins are not only next to useless, but are killing people. (See here.)
- Michael Bailey's theories of homosexuality and transvestism have resulted in harassment, lawsuits, and nearly losing his job.
- Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee: For years this group has asserted that governments, especially the U.S. government, manipulate the gold price to a lower level than it would be in the absence of such manipulation. It seems to me that there is almost no way that a layman can discover the truth behind this, both because of lack of expertise and because definitive evidence is unlikely to be forthcoming.
- Peak oil.
On any given matter, the establishment will have powerful motives for the maintenance of the status quo, and that includes the scientific establishment. Whenever the partisans of a particular theory say that their critics should be silenced, we ought to be extremely suspicious.
I am considered by my friends to be a right wing bigot, but I am continually surprised at how closed-minded the liberal intelligentsia is. From stuff like global warming to freedom of speech and association, they are far more ignorant, selfish and totalitarian than the most stereotypical of neo-nazis, to say nothing of the denizens of the HBD-sphere or contrarians in general.
ReplyDeleteWeren't Newton's theories on optics rejected at first?
ReplyDeleteI can't remember the details but I seem to remember his peers didn't want to publish his work on optics.
I think he then published them on his own.
His bad experience over publishing his work on optics made him shy to promote his work with calculus for years if I remember correctly.
This is a good piece, Dennis, but you're forgetting arguably the most famous controversy of all - the controversy between Darwinism and Intelligent Design.
ReplyDeleteIt may be the case that HIV infects cells and damages them, but some other arm of the immune system does the final job. The immune system is known to have a large number of feedback loops that are not apparent until the situation presents itself.
ReplyDeleteTodd White:
ReplyDeleteThere's not a controversy between "Darwinism" (whatever that is, please Sir, tell this bio major what you mean) and intelligent design. Intelligent design doesn't even have a theory that can be tested about how it would allegedly work to stop speciation. If I have to make it more simple for you: We can see "microevolution" at work, we know of no mechanism whereby this might be stopped from becoming "macroevolution" and no one, not even Behe has been able to provide one. If one is going to challenge the reigning scientific paradigm in a given field one has to have a theory that better fits the data and there has to be a mechanism in which to test this theory. I can think of ways that evolution might be falsified, without a mechanism I can't think of a single way that intelligent design might be falsified. Which is why no scientist of note in the bio sciences has taken creationism or ID seriously for over 50 years.
Many scientists forget that consenus is not a feature of science.
ReplyDeleteOnce most educated people believed that the earth was flat, infectious diseases were a divine punishment and god spoke to people who exhibited neurological symptoms.
If anything, the history of science is one of weird and uncommon ideas working and consensus failing.
If anything, the history of science is one of weird and uncommon ideas working and consensus failing.
ReplyDeleteWe only remember winners. Theories that went against establishment science but sucked even more are down the memory hole. As someone said, "they laughed at Bozo the Clown too." There are tons of weird and uncommon ideas that fail.
Consensus science slows adoption of new paradigms that are true, but it also blocks new paradigms that are total bs.
The big problem with is when it blocks fairly cheap and easy research that would convince reasonable people that current theories are or are not correct.
Then we have people confusing messenger and message. Journals won't publish anything by Deusberg. That is clearly an institutional failure.
The next big problem is that nonscience theories like intelligent design creationism adopt the mantle of "suppressed truth."
It seems to me that some blue sky funding for heretical experiments would be reasonable. That way, people promoting nonsense like IDC would have to admit that there are no possible experiments, and people promoting say, aneuploidy as a significant contributor to cancer could do experiments.
Anyone reading a journal called Medical Hypotheses should be able to distinguish a hypothesis from a well-supported theory. All that said, I think Deusberg is wrong on HIV->AIDS, but I could be wrong instead. It would be really nice to know.
As they say in some dark corners of the interwebs, the taboo is the evidence. Established theories should be able to handily thrash honest critism in scientific fora. The fact that anthropogenic global warming and HIV->AIDS proponents are unwilling to look for evidence that would disprove them looks very bad. It feeds conspiracy theories, and hurts science as a whole.
Clarence: In a great irony, you're proving Dennis' point (and my point, as well): Some scientific subjects are just considered beyond the pale. And that's unfortunate, because in the case of I.D., anyone whose studied the issue objectively realizes that I.D. is a worthy alternative to Darwinism, and should be considered as such. That's why you see some Darwinists (not many, but some) who do defend the right of I.D. proponents to be heard.
ReplyDeleteTodd,
ReplyDeleteOutline an experiment that could disprove IDC. If it is not amenable to experiment, outline the research that would gather evidence that would lead to the conclusion that IDC is false.
Rob: I don't really accept the premise of the question. There are very few theories in science which can be totally disproven. The key question is: Which theory works better than the others? That's usually the way science has worked. In any case, I'll play along and ask: "Outline an experiment that could disprove Darwinism?"
ReplyDeleteTodd White:
ReplyDelete"I don't really accept the premise of the question. There are very few theories in science which can be totally disproven."
Name one that can't be. Bet you can't.
"A wizard did it" isn't a theory. Give it up.
Todd:
ReplyDeleteDare I say I'm quite a bit more familiar with both the science and the "debate" than you are. As I posted to you awhile ago on another blog, I originally got a bio degree because I wanted to disprove evolution, even though like most hardcore Christians I had no other issues with science.
There is nothing to ID. Behe has never published a single paper that disproves evolution, though he's published unrelated research, AND he doesn't claim he has real humdinger research that is being suppressed. Science operates on methodological materialism, and without a mechanism that limits or facts that contradict the reigning theory , that theory will continue to be used. It is only good science that it should be so.
I also never claimed that scientists disregarded creationism/id , someone who claims to be as familiar with this subject as you do, oh uncredentialed one, should know that. There's plenty of public debates that go on every now and then, I could easily link you to such on the web, or direct you to a web site such as The Panda's Thumb with essays defending evolution written by biologists.
As for disproving ID:
Until you get me a mechanism that stops micro evolution from becoming macro, you have nothing to propose or defend. And of course you know evidence can never prove/disprove a God or something that happened outside the laws of the existing universe. Very fair of you to present us with such a "theory" as ID.
Meanwhile you wish to know how you could disprove evolution? I can think of three ways:
A. As I said above. Come up with an empirically verifiable method that stops evolution in its tracks.
B. There shouldn't be any transitional fossils at all. Forget your so -called "gaps" (easily explained where they exist, but I find creationists tend to lie alot about the fossil record) there shouldn't be any at all.
C. There are many genes that seem to reoccur among multiple organisms. This is commonly seen as evidence for a single ancesster. Prove that these all arose separately.
3, right off the top of my head, that would either put the nail in it, or the third which would raise Grave Questions to say the least.
On this particular subject Todd, I have spent many years with it. I truly think you are out of your league, as your post and its simplistic conclusions and questions leads me to believe.
"It is significant that, although it is often claimed that Darwinism is unfalsifiable, many of the things Darwin said have in fact been falsified. Many of his assertions of fact have been revised or denied, many of his mechanisms rejected or modified even by his strongest supporters (e.g., by Mayr, Gould, Lewontin, and Dawkins), and he would find it hard to recognise some versions of modern selection theory as his natural selection theory. This is exactly what a student of the history of science would expect. Science moves on, and if a theory doesn't, that is strong prima facie evidence it actually is a metaphysical belief."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/falsify.html
A great falsifier of evolutionary theory would be if when atavistic and vestigal traits were found to be not possibly from a common ancestor. For example, Whales have occasionally been born with legs, but not wings (and humans with tails, and chickens with teeth, etc). This is because Whales didn't evolve from flying animals (duh). But if someone named God created everything independently by magic, then there is no reason why a whale could not just sprout a feathered wing one day by accident, is there? It would be just as likely as leg, right? (how anyone can look at the "hand" skeletal structure in marine mammals and deny evolution is beyond me)
Evolutionary theory also makes predictions: It was predicted long ago that we would find transitional dinosaur/bird fossils. Turns out, many common dinosaurs were covered in feathers and proto-feathers. Creationists were flabbergasted.
Let's say that ID is accepted as "science" in the sense there is a spirit in the machine. So what can anyone do in science armed with that viewpoint? Absolutely nothing. It is useless as a component of scientific theory because there are no predictions that can be made of it. If anything, it would hinder scientific research because when investigating a complex trait, an ID believer could throw his hands up and say, "Oh, well there's no point in figuring out how this got here, must have been one of those times where God gave it a little nudge...moving on now."
Science is the study of NATURE. By definition, the study of the SUPER-natural is excluded, unless you are trying to make some apparently supernatural phenomena explainable according to known laws of nature.
Rob: How about Darwinism itself? Francis Crick was honest enough about the problems with Darwinism that he started advocating "panspermia" (the idea that life originated in outer space and came to Earth via a comet).
ReplyDeleteClarence: I really like the open, tolerant tone of your comment. You seem like a very pleasant person.
ReplyDeleteI literally laughed out loud when you wrote, "Until you get me a mechanism that stops micro evolution from becoming macro, you have nothing to propose or defend."
You do, realize, of course, that Darwinism doesn't "have a mechanism that turns micro-evolution into macro-evolution." That's a not insignificant problem.
While I certainly wouldn't expect an average Joe to know that, a person who brags that he has a bio degree should know that.
To repeat your words, "I truly think you are out of your league."
Clarence: Just out of curiosity, why did you get a bio degree in order to "disprove evolution?"
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:
ReplyDeleteYes, "science is the study of NATURE." However, to say that I.D. is "the study of the SUPER-natural" is a gross misunderstanding. I.D. is an interpretation of the evidence from NATURE via the scientific method.
Todd, you failed. A scientific theory must be formulated in a way that it can be disproved. Anything else, whatever it is, is not science. As a lower bar, is there any hypothesis that your brand of creationism suggests testing? Even just one?
ReplyDeleteWhile you totally didn't mean to, you admitted you believe in creationism because it makes you feel good, not because it contributes to understanding the world. That's fine. I encourage you feel your feelings. "Jeeboo coulda done it" is right up there with "what if it's all just a dream man?"
Disprove Darwinism? I'll assume you mean diprove evolution by selection. That one is easy.
Take a population that varies in a genetically influenced trait. Selectively breed it for that trait. Discover that there was no change in gene frequency or phenotype. Presto, well on the way to disproving evolution by selection.
What do you think "Darwinism" is that panspermia would disprove it? When you say Darwinism do you mean nonmagical origins of life?
The elements of nature assemble themselves into Life As We Know It. It was all there from the first motions of the big bang. Randomness and chance are superficial notions.
ReplyDeleteThis amazing tableaux can be taken as a sign of intelligent design or not. But arguing about species and genes is basically beside the point.
"Once most educated people believed that the earth was flat". Really? When was that?
ReplyDeleteTodd:
ReplyDeleteYou claim evolution doesn't have a mechanism. The mechanism is changes in the genes, and the study of this mathematically is called population genetics. This process involves several types of mutations : recombination, transposition, insertion/deletion, frame shift mutations and point mutations.The sub-science of genetics itself has a massive section dealing with evolution via measuring changes in allelle frequency, etc, and some of this stuff is even observed in the laboratory. Check this out:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091018141716.htm
Really, at this point you are either dishonest -I noticed you moved the goalposts from earlier when I answered your question about how to disprove evolution- or, more likely, given your persona on several blogs, merely uneducated about this subject. And you wonder why I said no biologist of any importance in the regular scientific community has had to take creationism seriously in the past fifty years -well this argument here demonstrates my point. Arguments from ignorance or increduality are pretty much the order of the day for creationists and ID fans alike.
In any case, I remain game. Got any more first year biology questions you wish me to answer for you? Any more chick tract level critiques of evolution? If not, I'd advise you to investigate what I've told you, learn some basic bio, and then get back on the field of battle if after doing that, you find anything to battle about.
Clarence:
ReplyDeleteI wrote, "Darwinism doesn't "have a mechanism that turns micro-evolution into macro-evolution."
In response, you wrote, "The mechanism is changes in the genes, and the study of this mathematically is called population genetics."
Now, if you are claiming that this is the "mechanism" that turns "micro-evolution into macro-evolution," may, I ask, when and where has this been observed?
In other words, is this just a theory/hope or a scientifically proven fact? Obviously, for your sake, I hope it's a "fact." Otherwise, your snotty attitude is going to seem even less appropriate than it already does.
No, Rob, you failed. And you failed in a way which reveals that your understanding of this topic is limited to Richard Dawkins books – because Dawkins uses that “selective breeding” canard all the time. When has “selective breeding” produced a new species? Do tell.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Rob, what did I possibly write which would make you claim that I “believe in creationism because it makes me feel good?” For starters, I’m not a creationist. Honestly, dude, read what I write before you launch into your Darwinist screeds.
ReplyDeleteTodd:
ReplyDeleteYes, this has been observed at the level of speciation, in both plants and fish, among other things. For an overview: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Now at this point you'll be saying well, changing from one species to another isn't good enough! I need direct evidence that changes from species to genus or from genus to family! When it is pointed out to you that those larger changes take more time than a human life span you'll let this information go in one ear and out the other. When the fossil record is brought up, you'll sneer that it has gaps and disproves "Darwinism" , whatever that is. Finally, you'll forget the bigger point which is that in order to replace evolution with ID , ID would have to have some mechanism that could be tested, something that put a break on genetic changes over long periods of time.
See why this was a waste of time? Even though I've given you links and practically a beginners level course in evolutionary biology, you still probably haven't budged an inch though you have neither published papers nor scientific opinion on your side, and you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
I really , really wish you would surprise me and come up with something valid to hit evolution with.
Clarence: While it's tempting to read a 23-page document by a group of people I already know through experience are intellectually dishonest, do you have anything shorter (say, 5-10 pages) and without all these lawyerly clauses?
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to plough through it, but there's got to be something with more straightforward language, right?
This document just screams, "I'm here to bore and confuse you."
What is the point of saying, "Creation does not need a wizard-creator because the elements themselves are such that they automatically assemble themselves into trees and butterfies, and Mozart just by following Physics."
ReplyDelete"Hydrogen at the big bang plus natural law plus a little time equals The Amazing World We Live In. There is no mystery to it."
Another way of looking at this would be to become very impressed by the nature of even the simplest bit of matter. As if everything is potential in it. How did that happen?
Do such contemplations make one less Religious? It is far from obvious why they should.
Todd, your 11:07 comment reads like self-parody. "lawyerly clauses" - *barf*. How dumbed-down does the evidence really need to be presented for you to read it? Would you prefer something with all the tabloid razzle and dazzle of Creation Ex Nihilo magazine?
ReplyDeleteAnd how is talkorigins.org intellectually dishonest? Just because they have a different viewpoint?
Creationism is nothing but a big game of the God of the Gaps. Everything that we haven't figured out precisely how it evolved, becomes evidence for Mr. Magic Man's involvement. I wonder if he said "And this is good" when his loving finger created viruses, mosquitoes, and Crohn's disease.
Anony
ReplyDeleteSaying that nature "evolved" into what it is now is just a way of saying it was all there from the beginning. Just in a seed form. To me, seeds are no less fascinating and awe inspiring than Oak Trees.
I find it hard to believe that anyone who's read this short essay on the modern synthesis (linked below) by the Darwinian believer Michael Hart or the book "Quantum Evolution" by JohnJoe McFadden, each of which describes in detail the problems with the Darwinian model, can have more than an intuition that Darwinian evolution is true.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009899.html
I stopped reading half way through Andrew's article because it was so misinformed, such as when it says there is a "mysterious lack of intermediate forms" when actually the fossil record is chock full of them, or when it says evolution has never made predictions, when it makes them all the time. The aforementioned dinosaur/bird transitions discovered in China recently were predicted by evolutionary theory before they were found. And I don't know why Larry Auster is even a voice that is listened to on this subject, he does not even seem to know the definition of "species".
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteAuster didn't write the essay linked in my post above, Michael Hart did. Michael Hart isn't a denialist, he is a believer in Darwinian evolution and he is a published author.
You say:
"The aforementioned dinosaur/bird transitions discovered in China recently were predicted by evolutionary theory before they were found."
Taking the fossil record as a whole, both as it existed in Darwin's time and as it exists now 150 years later, the record does not look like what the modern synthesis of the theory of evolution would predict.
Hart was sure sympathetic to ID in that essay, regurgitating their unsupported nonsense about a lack of transitional fossils, and making an unnecessary distinction between macro and micro evolution. Indeed, you held it up as something that "details the problems with the Darwinian model". Why do ID-ers like to label the theory of evolution as "Darwinism" so much anyway? Does that make it sound kookier or more like a competing religion, to name such a broad theory an extension of one man's name? No biologist calls evolution "Darwinism", what is that even supposed to mean?
ReplyDelete"Taking the fossil record as a whole, both as it existed in Darwin's time and as it exists now 150 years later, the record does not look like what the modern synthesis of the theory of evolution would predict."
And what would it predict? At least we agree that it can predict something, because ID sure doesn't. Who made these predictions you speak of though? And how are they not what *you* would expect? Examples, please.
While we are at it, do you have any essays that detail the problem with the Newtonian model? I've heard it breaks down a bit during in interstellar travel, or if we look far enough down a microscope. I think we may need to consider divine intervention as a possible explanation for event horizons and quantum entanglement. -- Do you see here how poorly ID can be utilized in any scientific field? It is worse than useless. It is insulting to the whole scientific process as long as it makes no testable assertions.
If IDers proposed experiments such as "We will test the existence of a divine being by praying for this lab mouse 10x a day to see if it lives longer..." they could at least get scientific respect for putting their theories on the line, something normal scientists do every day. Indeed, Moses did it himself in the Old Testament against the Caananite priests of Baal.
Galton tested the power of prayer by looking at the lifespans of British monarchs, whom he reckoned would be prayed for much more than others. He found nothing.
ReplyDeleteHe who posts anonymously,
ReplyDeleteIf by sympathetic to ID you mean honest about the case for neo-Darwinian (is that better than just Darwinian?) evolution, then yes I agree. Otherwise, the essay really had nothing to do with ID nor did my posts which were both substantively about the theory of evolution by random mutation and natural selection.
"What would it predict?"
What do you mean? The answer was right there in Hart's essay. The man, Darwin, said it himself:
"Darwin mentioned this problem himself in The Origin of Species. In chapter VI he says, "Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms?" Even more strikingly, he says in chapter XIV, "Why does not every collection of fossil remains afford plain evidence of the gradation and mutation of the forms of life? We meet with no such evidence, and this is the most obvious and forcible of the many objections which may be urged against my theory."
"Darwin's answer to this objection was the extreme imperfection of the geologic record, and in chapter IX he points out (correctly) that "only a small portion of the surface of the Earth has been geologically explored, and no part with sufficient care." Darwin generally avoided making explicit predictions, but implicit in his statements is the prediction that if the geologic record were to be is examined more extensively then most--or at least many--of these "missing links" would be unearthed.
"This was a plausible argument at the time when his book appeared, in 1859. However, in the intervening century and a half the number of individual fossils unearthed has risen 1000-fold, and alas, the gaps in the fossil record have not been filled in. Most fossils found in that time have been of species already known in Darwin's time, and most of the new species discovered have been "siblings" to those already known, rather than ancestors. A few wholly different forms have been uncovered, but these are clearly not the intermediate forms that Darwin's theory claims must have existed.
"For the most part, what the fossil record displays are various species, each of which arises suddenly (and is at the outset clearly distinct from any prior species), then persists virtually unchanged for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, and then eventually dies out. (An excellent discussion of the facts--replete with pictures--can be found in chapter 8 of Michael Denton's book.) Instead of the fossil record providing proof of Darwin's theory, it has mostly provided problems to be explained away!
"Furthermore, according to Darwin's theory, there must have been a larger number of intermediate forms between distinct genera of animals than between closely related species; and more intermediates still between higher divisions (such as families, classes, orders, and phyla). However, the fossil record does not bear out this prediction."
While I have no interest in discussing Intelligent Design, it seems that both ID and neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory have the same predictive power, as scientific theories, when it comes to the physical evidence (ie. fossil record), that is, not much.
Andrew: Thank you for that excellent link.
ReplyDeleteI give Michael Hart a lot of credit. By admitting some of the problems with Darwinism - and yet still choosing to believe in it - he has major credibility in my eyes. Even so, I still agree with Auster (and most Americans) that Darwinism is wrong.
Anonynmous: People who advocate Darwinism should be called "Darwinists." Just like people who advocate "Christianity" should be called "Christians." And people who who advocate conservatism should be called "conservative." I could go on. Honestly, I don't see what the problem is.
ReplyDeleteFor those who are interested...
ReplyDelete"Frequently raised but weak arguments against Intelligent Design"
http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/
Neo-Darwinism? I take it you mean "evolutionary theory" again. Great way to make the greatest tenet, the very foundation of biology sound like some cheap political ideology, I guess. It's an old tactic, really, it was used against "Copernican" theory a long time ago by some mean, backwards people. (Would Galileo be considered a "Neo-Copernican"?)
ReplyDelete"the gaps in the fossil record have not been filled in. "
This is what is meant by "God of the Gaps". Because guess what, gaps are being filled in all the time! Transitional fossils are being found all the time! Will we ever fill all of the gaps? No, of course not. It would be absurd to think so and evolutionary thought does not predict we will. The only way that would happen, oddly enough, is if there were some divine being desparately eager to defy the rules of chance and provide us a veritable walk through museum in the bedrock showcasing His handiwork.
"For the most part, what the fossil record displays are various species, each of which arises suddenly (and is at the outset clearly distinct from any prior species), then persists virtually unchanged for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, and then eventually dies out."
Some species are unanticipated, many others are not and are complete with transitional forms. Did you ever poke around that talkorigins website? There is transitional forms bonanza on display over there. And we haven't even touched on the overwhelming genetic evidence for evolution.
Animals evolve in response to changing environments. When the need arises, they evolve, and evolve quickly. But if they are already in equibrilium with their habitat, selective pressure is lowered and they can remain unchanged for long periods of time.
In a very short period of time, Gough Island mice have apparently evolved to be pack hunting carnivores, how long do you think it would take before they didn't resemble anything like a mouse? Closer to home, fence lizards are evolving longer legs in response to fire ants.
Something similar may have happened to T. Rex?
This is ignoring the genetic evidence, again, because geneticists have proven polar bears evolved from brown bears. That would be an example of a "speciation" for you.
What are Microraptor, early Hominids, Indohyus, Synapsids, Basilosaurus and Mesohippus if not transitional fossils?
There is just so much in favor of evolution and absolutely nothing in favor of ID, the two do not even deserve a debate with each other. IDers are like little kids who constantly ask "well how did this happen? Where is this? Are we there yet?" without every doing anything themselves to solve the riddles of nature, puttin the onus entirely on their opponents to prove their unsupported assertions wrong.
Hey, do you know where Creationism is really popular? Muslim countries. Oh, and Africa. And every other backward country that firmly believes in superstition. Maybe I was mistaken and primitives are really the more enlightened people! Who needs technology and understanding nature and all that anyway. God will take care of ya. Until he doesn't anymore.
He who posts anonymously,
ReplyDeleteTap me on the shoulder when you have physical evidence of a new species that evolved from homo sapien via random mutation and natural selection.
Hey, Anony
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, posting as "anonymous" slices off about 3 inches of your believability.
Secondly, what does taking religion seriously have to with the idea of evolution? Given that everything that is amazing and awe-inspiring about creation was fully present from the first instant of the Big Bang???
Rum and Todd,
ReplyDeleteImagine you had grant money. What intelligent design driven experiment would you want perform? What kind of data would you want to collect?
Is anything imaginable incompatible with intelligent design?
Andrew, why does a new species have to have evolved from humans? Seems like moving goalposts. Bacteria are alive, so are plants. If they evolve new species...
Todd, of course you are a creationist: you think Intelligent Designer (God in groucho glasses) created life. That's creationism. Jeeboo matters for ID, unless you are a Raelian and think space aliens designed life on earth. And even then, did the space aliens evolve, or did Jeeboo make them?
Say space aliens dood, say it.
Rob
ReplyDeleteThe idea of evolution has never been a problem for Religionists unless they hold somewhat literalistic views of the Bible, especially in regard to the book of Genesis.
My complaint with a lot of evolutionists is that they posit a starkly deterministic Universe and then use concepts like "chance" and "randomness" to describe how it evolves.
There is no possibility of randomness in an un-free Natural order. Things might look random to us but that does not mean, at the end of the day, that the elements could be acting on their own choices.
In other words, a true determinist would acknowledge that all of Nature that we see now was in fact present in seed form at the beginning of its existence and inevitably became what it became.
Rob: If you honestly think that there is no distinction between Creationism and Intelligent Design, it's not clear to me what would be the point of having a dialogue with you, since you're not even familiar with the most elementary terms in the debate.
ReplyDeleteThis is a timely article...
ReplyDeleteWSJ:
Bye Bye Birdie: Famed Fossil Loses Avian Perch
Paleontologists Determine the 150-Million-Year-Old Archaeopteryx Might Not Have Been Ancestor to Today's Finches and Doves
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125624463802402117.html
Wasn't it Mark Twain that said:
ReplyDelete"Don't live your life based on medical journals. You might die of a misprint."
Seems very pertinent there.
I'm well aware of the difference: creationists think God did it. Intelligent design advocates will not say that in public.
ReplyDeleteIf ID were fully accepted, what would change? What research priorities would y'all have? Is there even one experiment or line inquiry concerning living things that ID advocates want done? Just one?
You think space aliens could be the intelligent designers, right?
You are able to read headlines well, Todd, but the actual content cements archaeopteryx as a transitional species, even more so than what was previously thought. Creationists used to claim that archaeopteryx was a completely avian so there was no way to claim it as a transitional species. This new evidence that shows it had more dinosaur features than previously thought, is pleasing to witness for this "Darwinist". Whether it was a direct ancestor of modern birds or not is both irrelevant to its status as a transitional form and probably impossible to determine. The point is that there were selective pressures at that period of time pressuring small woodland raptors to develop flight. The family of animals in the process of developing what we would identify as avian traits are considered transitional forms. It is usually impossible to determine a linear succession [species A to species B to species C -continue for millions of years with perfect fossil record - ...to modern starling] from the fossil record, [since there was no designer to lovingly lay it all out for us] but evolutionary pressure is easily seen on broad groups of animals, affecting many species at the same time. Zooming out a bit to look at the succession of these families of similar species, evolution is remarkably clear.
ReplyDeleteRum,
I am guessing that quantum mechanics is above your pay scale, to quote another small mind.
There are several reasons why ID cannot be "tested" like some other theory.
ReplyDeleteMost of the same problems exist with Atheistic Darwinism. In a deterministic Universe, the way the world turned out is the only way that it could have turned out. Evolution-Theory is just about the means of the expression of what was always inherent in mater-energy. This goes nowhere towards answering the real question, "Where did this amazing stuff come from?" How does anyone design an experiment to see behind that veil?
Religious people are comfortable with this kind of question. Non-religious are less so.
Something strikes me, reading these arguments from Creationists. They seem to think that a "species" is some kind of entirely self contained entity with almost magical properties that just somehow dropped from the sky, as opposed to man-made, often arbitrary, segments on the continuum of life. They do not seem to understand the definition of the term, based on their skepticism that one species could evolve into another.
ReplyDeleteI also love the smugness in implying that I.D. is anything other than seeking scientific legitimacy for the old fairy tales of a nomadic tribe. As another commenter mentioned, who else could they think their designer could be? Rael? Emporer Xenu of the Intergalactic Axis?
Creationists are among the largest beneficiaries of polite discourse and political correctness. If the constant assaults on scientific theory were turned around on Christianity with the same frequency, oh how they would howl. I have noticed "Evolution - the Big Lie" T shirts are quite popular among evangelical youth, but most rationalist people are kind enough to refrain from wearing "Jesus - the Big Lie" T-shirts, despite the fact it is much more probable that Jesus's existence is a lie than the theory of evolution is incorrect. Maybe demanding a debate on the existence of Jesus and the truth of the miracles ascribed to him is a good "teach the controvery" idea? Maybe we should try to legislate a rationalist view of religion into history class?
I thank Christianity for its role in unifying Europe against invading Muslim hoardes, but other than that it has seemed to do nothing but impede progress in the West. I think it is finally time for rational people of differing ideologies to join forces and put that old superstition to sleep, for good this time. If they don't want this to happen then I suggest Christians stop scratching and poking at the sleeping giant of scientific inquiry, diverting brainpower from attending to more pressing concerns.
Quantum Physics and Chaos/Complexity theory are subjects I am on speaking terms with.
ReplyDeleteInvoking such theories to explain the Universe does nothing to answer the question "Where did those fascinating principles come from?"
One does not need to be able to prove an answer to that to point out that Evolutionists are equally unable to do so, but they do spend more effort to avoid the question.
For non-religious people to go a Crusade - that had real costs and dangers to themselves - they would need a belief in its ultimate value.
ReplyDeleteHaHa..Ha
That is a problem with Nihilism. It annihilates itself.
Darwinism is the creation story of atheism.
ReplyDeleteIf you rule out - a priori - the existence of God - then yes, Darwinism is an excellent account of how life began and evolved. Indeed, it's the only account that could exist.
However, if you're open to the existence of God (as I am), and you know that scientists are prone to the same biases and prejudices of any human being (which seemed to be the point of Dennis' essay) AND you're willing to do the necessary research, then you'll conclude that Intelligent Design is a worthy, rational alternative.
"There are several reasons why ID cannot be "tested" like some other theory. "
ReplyDeleteBecause it is not a theory. It is a religious faith. All the more reason to keep it out of science class, and out of science publications.
"Most of the same problems exist with Atheistic Darwinism. In a deterministic Universe, the way the world turned out is the only way that it could have turned out."
"Atheistic Darwinism" is not taught in science class. I'm not even sure that is a valid philosophical construct, just a name made up by creationists to describe their opponents. A lack of religious perspective does not automatically constitute "Atheistic". Many scientists are atheists, true, but that is due to the lack of evidence for any magical beings in our universe. If there were such evidence, more would believe, and real theories could be tested. Maybe even in high school science classes.
"if you're open to the existence of God (as I am)...you'll conclude that Intelligent Design is a worthy, rational alternative.
ReplyDeleteSo after claiming ID was not creationism, you describe ID as creationism. And just one God, surely the world looks more like it was designed by a committee, polytheism is surely a more reasonable conclusion.
So space aliens could not have been the Intelligent Designer?
If ID propagandists want to be taken sersiouly, you need to create hypotheses and test them.
There is no possible evidence that could disprove creationism. Right? There's always the doctrine of divine deception, which I guess we need to call the doctrine of intelligent designer deception. Then you don't have a theory, and you aren't playing science. Make a prediction from ID, just one.
"Quantum Physics and Chaos/Complexity theory are subjects I am on speaking terms with."
ReplyDeleteI'm think I'm going to have to call your bluff on that. Not only have you demonstrated the most rudimentary knowledge of biology and "Darwinism", but anyone who knows anything about the nature of subatomic particles knows that "deterministic" is absolutely not the word to use. Chance and probabilities reign supreme, for example you can know an unstable isotope's half-life, but you can not predict when any particular atom will decay to its more stable isotope. It's all chance and probabilities, there is no causal force for the action. I suggest reading some Leonard Susskind to aquaint yourself with an overall understanding of quantum mechanics and relativity.
"For non-religious people to go a Crusade - that had real costs and dangers to themselves - they would need a belief in its ultimate value."
The Crusades were not what I was talking about. They did not save the West from anything. They were a huge waste of life. I was referring to the Umayyad invasions which almost turned Europe muslim. And I probably gave Christianity too much credit. The Franks might have been just as powerful, or more, without it.
"However, if you're open to the existence of God (as I am)...AND you're willing to do the necessary research, then you'll conclude that Intelligent Design is a worthy, rational alternative."
I'm open to the existence of God, and I'd believe if I ever encountered the kind of evidence that seemed to be all over the place before video cameras. I don't think I'd like to meet him though. If he exists, then he has to be massively indifferent or incredibly evil, maybe both. The Old Testament stories are enough for me to want to stay far away from that genocidal character who directs his crazed followers to go on a jihad, slaying women and children and looting all the gold for His temple. If God exists, then Muslims and Christians probably do worship the same guy. Lucifer was probably the good guy in the narrative, which might explain why the Yezidis are the most peaceful people in the Middle East. At least I don't see how it gets much worse than Yahweh. One day I'd like to channel Crowley and hear what Lucifer has to say about him, the Morning Star seems like a noble Promethean character who got punished for trying to help some naked humans in their tropical jail. You'd have to be pretty cruel to devise an eternal lake of fire to punish people for choosing the wrong contestant in American Idol. New theory: God is Japanese. Test that one, IDer's!
Rob: "Make a prediction from ID, just one."
ReplyDeleteTW: Here one I.D. prediction that's worked out pretty well: "Junk DNA" would turn out not to be "junk."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/experimental_data_force_resear.html#more
Another dishonest article by the Discovery institute, no suprise there. At least we now know where you get your peculiar terminology of "Darwinism" and "Neo-Darwinism" from. And I thought you were being creative. :-(
ReplyDeleteAnyhoo, several points:
First, and most obviously, that some junk DNA turns out to have some sort of a function does not mean that all junk DNA does.
"Junk DNA" was mostly a colloquial way of describing introns, not some slogan that prevented "Darwinists" from studying it. In fact, it was "Darwinists" who performed the research that enabled IDers to concoct their polemic, unsuprisingly.
Much of the accumulated human genome (at least 8%, estimates up to 25%) comes by way of accidental insertion by retroviruses. This is definitely not creation by Mr. Magic, instead it is a testament to the power of evolution that such potentially deleterious events can often be co-opted into something useful.
Transcription of junk DNA does not mean what is transcribed is actually useful to the cell, indeed, you can clip out large portions of useless DNA with no harm done. Additionally, many coding regions are simply repetitive elements that were accidently copied over and over again, resulting in oddities like simple one-celled creatures such as Polychaos dubium (cool name!) having much larger genomes than humans, to cite an extreme example. Repetitive sequences are clearly accidental but can eventually benefit the organism by giving it more space for a potentially beneficial mutation.
Of all of that list, Dennis, I'd say Bailey's case is the most interesting. Basically, that was an outright political battle with the "genderqueer" lobby. Bailey's theory is basically correct, however, in stating that there are two types of male-to-female "transgendered" people: (1) homosexual men who have not been adequately socialized to reconcile their passive homosexuality with maleness and (2) autogynephilic people (i.e., men who are turned on by themselves portrayed as women). These conclusions have been based on a tremendous amount of research and study, but of course transgender people themselves do not like them because they run counter to the dominant paradigm that "some people have a different internal gender to their biological sex".
ReplyDelete==========
On the evolution/ID debate, my sense is that people who are skeptical of evolution tend to be so because they are scared of the "worldview" that they presume to result from it. Most typically these people are religious or theistic in some degree or other, which can be puzzling to me because as a Christian believer myself I have no issues with the evolutionary science and theory.
"....my sense is that people who are skeptical of evolution tend to be so because they are scared of the "worldview" that they presume to result from it."
ReplyDeleteOr it could be because the actual physical evidence, the fossil record, doesn't look anything like what the Darwinian theory of evolution would predict.
3in of cred
ReplyDeleteLong before Darwin and discussions of genes, speciation, etc, philosofers were arguing about whether the existence of a awe-inspiring creation "proved" the existence of a Creator adequate to the task. It does not, of course. One can always say the world just is what it is and who knows how that happened. The debate was deadlocked hundreds of years before the Scientific Method got rolling.
One point I am trying to make is that the advent of Modern Science has added virtually nothing to that debate. Invoking evolutionary mechanisms as the means by which material stuff changes its form over time has no bearing on the question of where this amazing stuff came from. Nothing is proved or disproved about the Big Question by noticing that natural selection allows organisms to adapt and change.
The fact that Carbon, nitrogen, and hydrogen fit together in such a way that DNA is possible and that DNA forms its double helix and all the rest is what the Catholic Church used to call a "Mystery". Logic has little to say and awe is not inappropriate. Or one can ignore the whole question if one is so inclined.
But waving the Scientific Method in the general direction of this phenomenon misses the point, imho.
In regard to subatomic quantum mechanics: Is this bebavior reactive - ie wholly responsive to initial conditions - or do we ascribe autonomous creativity to the behavior?
Who can ever answer this? It makes no difference anyway if one is thinking of the Big Question.
Nova: I don't see how Darwinism is compatible with Christianity. At the very least, it makes things like the Fall very hard to reconcile.
ReplyDeleteThat's a very good point, Rum.
ReplyDeleteA true "skeptic" (even a Darwinist) should be willing to admit that those are very complicated issues which science hasn't even begun to grapple with.
They have theories. And they have hopes. But they don't have answers.
We should search for answers, yes, but until we find them, we shouldn't lose our sense of mystery and awe.
"Or it could be because the actual physical evidence, the fossil record, doesn't look anything like what the Darwinian theory of evolution would predict."
ReplyDeleteThat was funny.
"Invoking evolutionary mechanisms as the means by which material stuff changes its form over time has no bearing on the question of where this amazing stuff came from."
You're right, "Why is there Something instead of Nothing?" is an age old philosophical question. There might be an infinite number of answers to that, so there is probably little point in pursuing that question until we are prepared to do so using the scientific method.
"The fact that Carbon, nitrogen, and hydrogen fit together in such a way that DNA is possible and that DNA forms its double helix and all the rest is what the Catholic Church used to call a "Mystery". Logic has little to say and awe is not inappropriate. Or one can ignore the whole question if one is so inclined."
Flight seemed like a mystery also, before we figured out how to do it. On other planets evolution has probably taken a different path, and there might be life forms that are based on annother element. You are displaying Earth-bias.
"In regard to subatomic quantum mechanics: Is this bebavior reactive - ie wholly responsive to initial conditions - or do we ascribe autonomous creativity to the behavior?"
Umm, neither? Not everything in the universe you can expect to grok (understand intuitively) especially on scales what we do not experience. Pure probabilities and chance are most likely able to exist in nature on their own without being determined by initial conditions or possessing mental traits like creativity. Whether you understand it or not does not matter, the fact is that it is mathematically true and verified through experimentation. There are people interested in testing some kind pan-psychism as a remote possibility. I can support a far-out hypothesis. The key is, can you test it? IDers just like to attack, attack, attack in a religious fervor without testing their own theories and superstitions. There are a ton of experiments than can be run to test the Christian theory of a loving God who wants us to go to heaven. In fact these natural experiments are being run all the time (famines, disaster, etc), but God Almighty has yet to show up. Therefore, I conclude he is either evil or indifferent...or nonexistent.
If I were Obamas Education Czar I would not have schools teaching ID. It is not useful Science and that is not a trivial issue... I would have them learn about Natural Selection because it is the most powerful bio-science analytical tool around. I would also make sure they understood how "randomness" falls short of explaining how genetic material "just happens to exist" for no apparent reason at all. I would leave them with intellectual room for their faith if they were so inclinded.
ReplyDeleteAnd the kids would all wear the same simple uniforms and have 2 hours of vigorous physical education a day.
I don't buy the combinatorics stuff from uncommon descent. They might be right about programs that write sentences, they are not correct that function of nucleotide chains requires "information" built in at the start. Variation and selection will do it.
ReplyDeleteA while ago, there was a dude who wanted to make RNA molecules that would bind pretty much anything he wanted em too. So he set up reaction that made random RNA. Then he ran the reaction products down a column of beads coated with what he wanted to bind(called a ligand) he took the RNAs that bound and amplified them, maybe a few times. Amplification doesn't have 1.0 fidelity, so the second RNA generation was almost, but not quite identical to the first. He then ran those down a column. And repeated a few times.
When he was done, the RNAs bound the ligand much more strongly than the original unselected RNAs that bound. The process is called SELEX.
So a system in which there was variation, reproduction, and selection resulted in adding "information" to polynucleotides. Molecules evolved function without an intelligent designer building the information into the original molecules.
I don't see how Darwinism is compatible with Christianity. At the very least, it makes things like the Fall very hard to reconcile.
Todd, be honest. The old testament creation myth is not consistent with Intelligent Design: nothing about observing the complexity of a cell would make someone think the first two people were kicked out of a nice garden for eating a fruit the Intelligent Designer told them not to eat. The only way to reconcile the OT with ID is to claim that the two designers are the same: creationism.
I checked out the uncommon descent faq. It explained that Christian (and pagan) relgious philosophy handled all the problems of creationism, and all those solutions apply to intelligent design. That's a fascinating result if one thinks ID is not creationism.
Not to mention there various things that could have been intelligently designed.
The Universe only: God/IDer created the universe and laws of nature, then everything happened with no more design. If this were ture, it means life arose abiotically. People and apes would be descended from common ancestors. So would men and oaks.
The first cell: Miraculous creation of life. Then things happened by natural law: still have common descent...
There are way more, which one do ID advocates think is true?
Nova: I don't see how Darwinism is compatible with Christianity. At the very least, it makes things like the Fall very hard to reconcile.
ReplyDeleteIt really has nothing to do with it. The OT is the spiritual history of humanity, from the Christian perspective, not a science textbook. Pope John Paul II himself accepted Darwinian evolution, and he was the Pope of the Catholic Church, and no metaphysical slouch either.
"That was funny."
ReplyDeleteInches better take this up with Darwinian believer and published author Michael Hart, not me. Here it is once again:
"For the most part, what the fossil record displays are various species, each of which arises suddenly (and is at the outset clearly distinct from any prior species), then persists virtually unchanged for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, and then eventually dies out. (An excellent discussion of the facts--replete with pictures--can be found in chapter 8 of Michael Denton's book.) Instead of the fossil record providing proof of Darwin's theory, it has mostly provided problems to be explained away!
"Furthermore, according to Darwin's theory, there must have been a larger number of intermediate forms between distinct genera of animals than between closely related species; and more intermediates still between higher divisions (such as families, classes, orders, and phyla). However, the fossil record does not bear out this prediction."
Nova: That's a myth. The report Darwinists always point to quotes the Pope as saying...
ReplyDelete"Evidence exists for "SOME THEORY OF EVOLUTION... while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution."
"Some theory of evolution" is not the same thing as Darwinism. The Catholic Church - by emphasizing that "controversy CONTINUES" - is actually distancing itself from Darwinism, because it knows Darwinism is a gateway drug to atheism.
Rob: "The old testament creation myth is not consistent with Intelligent Design."
ReplyDeleteTW: That's fine, because I don't believe in the Old Testament creation myth.
Rob: "I checked out the uncommon descent faq. It explained that Christian (and pagan) relgious philosophy handled all the problems of creationism, and all those solutions apply to intelligent design. That's a fascinating result if one thinks ID is not creationism."
ReplyDeleteTW: I don't remember seeing that. Can you quote it?
Rob: I'm an agnostic on the issue of common descent. I think there's good evidence for it and against it, and to be honest, I haven't researched the issue exhaustively, which I would need to do in order to reach a final conclusion. Also, I don't feel very motivated to make a conclusion on that, because - unlike the rest of the Darwinian paradigm - I don't feel the issue of common descent can be used as easily for atheist propaganda.
ReplyDeleteRob: Regarding that story about the dude with RNA, do you have a link to that?
ReplyDeleteAndrew,
ReplyDeleteMichael Hart is severely misinformed at least, or just offering sympathy to his political supporters, many of whom are IDers.
His claim about what evolution predicts, and what it shows, are simply not true. Animals typically do not appear absolutely "unchanged" for millions of years in the fossil record, but they will often be relatively stable. This is because once an ecological niche is filled adequately, selective pressure is reduced. When natural disasters strike that wipe out a large portion of species, ecological niches become available again and other species evolve rapidly to fill in those gaps.
Evolutionary theory is just completely unassailable.
Can anyone really think our large but defenseless whales could have co-existed with mosasaurs and giant sharks? Why would God give them blowholes and lungs anyway, if they didn't evolve from land animals? Is it some kind of cruel joke he played, that he spared fish from? And what's up with ostriches having wings but they can't fly? That seems kind of spiteful also.
Those of us here who are labelled as Darwinian evolutionists simply suspect that living things are the result of an undirected process. All the evidence at hand presently points to this possibility. If someone was to provide compelling evidence that evolution was directed by a conscious intelligence that would be exciting news indeed. We would embrace it whole heartedly as it would open up a whole new aspect of the universe. Unfortunately we cannot trust intuition on these matters and need some cold hard evidence – yet it is so hard to come up with.
ReplyDeleteUsually when things are designed there is ample evidence such as a little label that shows who made it, or plans or a workshop or a discussion with the maker. Most things that are designed are simple tools or even quite beautiful things like a Ferrari Dino. Life on the other hand is more like that half eaten meal left under the bed for a month – a seething mass of grotesqueness, quite clearly evolving. We are just fortunate that we only see the surface of things and the illusion of beauty because fundamentally life is ugly and stupid – just like what you would expect if it was evolving.
Cred: "Evolutionary theory is just completely unassailable."
ReplyDeleteTW: Just out curiosity (and this is a very sincere question) have scientists ever conducted an experiment in which they take a species from one environment, dump it into another environment, and then see if it turns into another species?
Since that's the Holy Grail of Darwinism, I would have to think that somebody somewhere tried that, right?
Anglo: "fundamentally life is ugly and stupid – just like what you would expect if it was evolving."
ReplyDeleteTW: Can I quote you on that? And people wonder why the debate over Darwin matters...
Can I quote you on that? Todd White
ReplyDeleteYou certainly can Todd. If you could see the four billion or so bugs crawling on your skin right now I’m sure you’d agree with me it is ugly. And as for stupid you might only have to go as far as reading half the comments on this thread.
You know it is obvious that intelligence is completely unnecessary. If you discovered a planet like Earth except it had no humans you would describe it as having no intelligent life wouldn’t you? Yet life managed to persist for billions of years. Animals are stupid when compared to humans, they don’t design and build things yet they can survive, often in incredibly hostile conditions. Thus intelligence is not a necessary requirement for life and there is no need to postulate an intelligent first cause. You're just being anthropomorphistic when you do that.
"Thus intelligence is not a necessary requirement for life and there is no need to postulate an intelligent first cause. You're just being anthropomorphistic when you do that."
ReplyDeleteOr we're just agreeing with Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas.
Congrats, Anglo. You've made my Quote of the Day...
ReplyDeletehttp://mustardseednovel.blogspot.com/2009/10/quote-of-day_30.html
"Or we're just agreeing with Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas"
ReplyDeleteTime to catch up to the 21st century maybe? The whole point of the scientific revolution was that it disproved much of what Aristotle and Aquinas taught.
Or we're just agreeing with Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas. Andrew E.
ReplyDeleteNewsflash – we now have considerably more data concerning the nature of reality. The year is 2009AD not 400BC, not 1200AD or the 17th century where so many here seem to be stuck like bugs on flypaper.
Todd, I’m intrigued as to why you are so impressed by my statement that life is fundamentally ugly and stupid. Consider dinosaurs, they were ugly and stupid by human standards. Most of life is just parasitically feeding on other life taking advantage wherever it can. Life has been around on Earth for three billion years or so yet it has only been in the last few thousand years you could have a decent conversation.
Have I offended the divine creators of wondrous and beautiful nature by complaining about its inherent ugliness? Yet even Christians and Jews consider humans to be cursed. Or is the Darwin debate important because, if the truth is widely known, nihilism will become universal and all hell will break loose? Is this debate about scientific enquiry or about the consequences of scientific enquiry?
"Newsflash – we now have considerably more data concerning the nature of reality. "
ReplyDeleteSo what exactly is the materialist explanation for the origin of the universe?
Andrew E:
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly does the origin of the universe (or multiverse, whatever reality truly is) have to do with evolution?
So what exactly is the materialist explanation for the origin of the universe?
ReplyDeleteWow, we’ve made it all the way to the beginning of everything already? Science has driven the gods back to the beginning of time.
I find the notion of the Eternal Recurrence appealing philosophically therefore the eternal Universe with cycles of big bang and big crunch fits quite nicely. As with absolutely everything else I'm open to new, compelling evidence, overthrowing this paradigm.
The materialist position is that without material there is nothing. A room that has all material removed from it is empty like a head with the brain removed is not conscious. If another Universe, absolutely identical materially to our own, existed it would also be absolutely identical in its so called non-physical attributes such as self consciousness.
Clarence: Anglo was the one who brought up the subject of the first cause in his comment above.
ReplyDeleteAnglo: There are obvious problems with the materialist explanation you present. First, the notion of the multiverse is step backwards towards an explanation since it merely compounds the problem of origins. Instead of one universe that needs a cause, there are now infinite ones in need of explanation. Second, to say that matter just exists is to say that it has always just existed, and if not then what came before? And if it has, then you have the problem of the infinite regress. That is to say, if time has no beginning then this moment right now, me typing on this keyboard to write this post, could never come about since it would take an infinite number of steps in time to get here. In other words, matter and time existing infinitely is a logical impossibility, a paradox.
In other words, matter and time existing infinitely is a logical impossibility, a paradox.
ReplyDeleteStephen Hawking would say that there was no time before the Big Bang as the Big Bang created time so infinite time is meaningless. Nietzsche and I would propose that time is circular, thus infinite but not paradoxical in the sense that we will pass under this bridge again some day.
When I mentioned first causes I was merely suggesting that there seemed no need to postulate an intelligent creator as intelligence has not been apparent in the Universe for most of its known history of 13+ billion years. It gets on quite well without it. It would be ludicrous to go on to propose that an old man with a flowing white beard created the Universe so that he could eventually impregnate an earth women to conceive a half man half god who would then be a blood sacrifice to assuage the sins of all mankind because this is the only way that a man can be forgiven for what another man has done wrong to somebody else because we don’t quite understand time or the beginning of the Universe. Or something similar….and this is what would happen if ID was taught in schools.
Perhaps it would be better to just keep the debate about biological evolution confined to the known biological era of planet earth. We need some evidence of intelligent design within this era to shake the current theory of creation by evolution.
"Creation by Evolution" is not a controversial idea as far as it goes.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it sounds to me like "I made an Oak Tree by planting this acorn."
Where did the acorn come from? Did a person make the amazing capabilities of a seed just by learning that planting it and watering it makes a tree happen?
A cloud of primordial gas turns into the Natural World and we call the evolution the agent of creation? Since "evolution" started with a cloud of gas that apparently turns itself into Butterflies and Peregrine Falcons why give it so much credit?
The Theory of Evolution explains nothing about the deep origin of things regardless of its utility in other areas.
Anglo,
ReplyDeleteI don't know what you mean when you say that intelligence has not been apparent for most of the Universe's existence. The laws of mathematics, physics and logic were in play from the beginning and they are signs of intelligence.
I agree with Hawking, so what then caused the Big Bang? Also, the proposition that time is circular is extremely unsatisfying. Why is there matter and time at all instead of nothingness? To say just that matter and time exist and that's all we know so let's move on won't cut it.
Regarding biological evolution, the case for modern evolutionary theory isn't nearly as strong as you claim. The physical evidence, the fossil record, simply doesn't look anything like the theory would predict. See the quote from Darwinian believer Michael Hart I've quoted several times above. I'm not here to argue for ID, I don't know much of anything about the ID movement. I'm here to argue that the materialist explanations of reality and biological evolution are woefully inadequate.
The laws of mathematics, physics and logic were in play from the beginning and they are signs of intelligence.
ReplyDeleteThe laws as you call them are human observations written up as descriptions of reality. Only humans are known to be aware of any such laws.
It would be useful to define what exactly intelligence is. I think intelligence is something that can pass the Turing Test in some sense. The God that came down and walked in the Garden of Eden and spoke with Adam, if true, would have been an intelligent being. An intelligent being is able to understand, comprehend and think abstractly. Language, hieroglyphics, drawings, attempts to communicate would be true signs of intelligence. Relatively simple equations such as e=mc ² or g = 9.81 m/s2 = 32.2 are not in the same league, say, as hieroglyphics would be on a piece of meteorite. Can you imagine the excitement if such a thing were discovered? If those equations arrived on a piece of meteorite, that would be a sign of extraterrestrial intelligence. So the sign of intelligence is not the existence of the ‘law’ but the existence of the equation – see the difference?
Since "evolution" started with a cloud of gas that apparently turns itself into Butterflies and Peregrine Falcons why give it so much credit?
Because evolution is the ‘mechanism’ of creation – give credit where credit is due I say. Yet it is not about giving credit, it is about defining reality within the context of the facts even if the facts are inadequate.
AA: "Todd, I’m intrigued as to why you are so impressed by my statement that life is fundamentally ugly and stupid."
ReplyDeleteTW: Would you agree or disagree, Sir, that Darwinism encourages such a perspective on life?
Todd White: The idea that everything is all for the best in this best of all possible worlds has been a target of philosophers for centuries. Schopenhauer, who was a tad anti-Semitic, declared that the fundamental error of Judaism lay in the book of Genesis, when God pronounced his creation "good". He felt Christianity a great improvement doctrinally because it denied the importance of the world.
ReplyDeleteBuddhists also don't think too highly of the world.
Dennis: I'm inclined to agree with you that we are NOT in the "best of all possible worlds," but that's very different from believing that life itself is "ugly and stupid," wouldn't you agree?
ReplyDeleteI suppose so. "Ugly and stupid" is as much of a judgment as "beautiful and intelligent". The world just is, and since I don't believe that it was made for humans, maybe we can't pass judgment on it. However, we instinctively feel that the world is somehow supposed to be good, thus we can be sorely disappointed.
ReplyDeleteSchopenhauer: "If the immediate purpose of our life is not suffering then our existence is the most ill-adapted to its purpose in the world: for it is absurd to suppose that the endless affliction of which the world is everywhere full, and which arises out of the need and distress pertaining essentially to life, should be purposeless and purely accidental. Each individual misfortune, to be sure, seems an exceptional occurrence; but misfortune in general is the rule."
Dennis et al: I think Life contains "beauty," "ugliness," "stupidity," AND "intelligence."
ReplyDeleteA philosophy in which ONLY "stupidity" and "ugliness" exist strikes me as itself "ugly" and "stupid."
I would like to clarify that I wrote "fundamentally life is ugly and stupid" - most of it and for most of its history. Turn your back for a second and some creature is sticking its proboscis into you to suck out your life juices. Slippery, slithering things are teeming everywhere, even inside your body, slugging it out in a contest of kill or be killed. Beauty and intelligence have arisen from the ugly and stupid morass of biological matter. Man has tamed his environment in a largely successful effort to hide the awful truth about the world. We mostly live in cities, get our meat packaged from the supermarket and surround ourselves with things we consider beautiful. This is man-made and as far as I can tell not God-made.
ReplyDeleteTodd, Here's wikipedia on SELEX. Sorry, not good at the hyperlink thing.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_Evolution_of_Ligands_by_Exponential_Enrichment
Uncommon descent discusses objections to ID and theological rebuttals to them:
22] Who Designed the Designer?
...[A]ccording to the principles of natural theology, the designer of the universe, in principle, does not need another designer at all
“[M]any materialists seem to think (Dawkins included) that a hypothetical divine designer should by definition be complex. That’s not true, or at least it’s not true for most concepts of God which have been entertained for centuries by most thinkers and philosophers. God, in the measure that He is thought as an explanation of complexity, is usually conceived as simple. That concept is inherent in the important notion of transcendence. A transcendent cause is a simple fundamental reality which can explain the phenomenal complexity we observe in reality. So, Darwinists are perfectly free not to believe God exists, but I cannot understand why they have to argue that, if God exists, He must be complex. If God exists, He is simple, He is transcendent, He is not the sum of parts, He is rather the creator of parts, of complexity, of external reality. So, if God exists, and He is the designer of reality, there is a very simple explanation for the designed complexity we observe.”
AA: "Slippery, slithering things are teeming everywhere, even inside your body, slugging it out in a contest of kill or be killed."
ReplyDeleteTW: Our symbiotic relationship with bacteria strikes me as a sign of intelligence, not stupidity.
Anglo,
ReplyDeleteI'm still not following your thinking as regards to laws and equations. I'm sure there is a philosphical word to describe what you're doing here though I don't know what it is. You're saying it's the equations that describe the laws that are the real markers of intelligence, not the laws themselves. How does that make sense? Why does the equation, to take your example, e=mc^2 hold true today just as it did yesterday and the day before that and so on, if it did not describe something objective, something outside itself? It sounds like you're saying the laws of physics and mathematics didn't exist until humans came around to discover them. How does that work? There is obviously an inherent order to the physical universe, where did it come from? Who gives the physical universe its order? And how is that order sustained from moment to moment?
This is the thread that never dies. Unable to grapple with the evidence for evolution I laid out upstream, IDers have moved God's Gap to the place more easily defended with vague, whodunnit rhetorical questions.
ReplyDelete"There is obviously an inherent order to the physical universe, where did it come from? Who gives the physical universe its order? And how is that order sustained from moment to moment?"
Natural selection of universe possibilities is a hypothesis. The orderly, elegant, efficient universes simply last longer and are able to give rise to stars, galaxies and life. There could have been other Big Bangs in the multiverse with other characteristics that dissolved quickly or at least are incapable of providing the conditions suited to the evolution of life. The Anthropic Principle: Any life that exists HAS to observe that the world/universe it observes is well suited to life, otherwise it would have never arisen to observe said universe in the first place.
Cred: There's no evidence of a multiverse. The only universe is the one we're in.
ReplyDeleteInches,
ReplyDeleteThe multiverse is very weak and, frankly, so weak that it is a sign of intellectual dishonesty when one resorts to it. As I already said higher up in this thread:
"First, the notion of the multiverse is step backwards towards an explanation since it merely compounds the problem of origins. Instead of one universe that needs a cause, there are now infinite ones in need of explanation. "
"Cred: There's no evidence of a multiverse."
ReplyDeleteNo, there is no evidence for a God. Yet you believe with firm conviction. And I just said a multiverse was a hypothesis.
"The only universe is the one we're in."
Possibly. But my, such confidence! Too bad so many physicists are inclined to disagree with you for reasons you cannot even begin to comprehend.
"The multiverse is very weak and, frankly, so weak that it is a sign of intellectual dishonesty when one resorts to it."
No, a sign of intellectual dishonesty is resorting to creationism whenever there is a quite natural gap in the evolutionary record here and there [but do please note the creationist failure to point out a single gap in this thread!], despite the otherwise overwhelming evidence for it.
There is potentially more physical evidence for a multiverse than the existence of God, and certainly a lot more theoretical evidence [math stuff] for it that is probably above your pay level. Heard of Schrodinger's cat?
Todd and Andrew have done more here to boldly display the fundamentally unscientific thought processes of creationists than any Richard Dawkins book. Tons of conjecture, moving of the goalposts, gee-golly-whiz "strikes me as..." sentences, wishful fantasizing, and still no answer to the multitude of transitional forms presented. Evidence for evolution was even presented in an article a creationsist posted, because someone only read the headline!